Backwards hit on WWII-era Moro Kris. Mistake?

[kai]

Hello Timo,

In the old days, if you went out to fight in battle, you would take your shield.

Yes, definitely. After having spent your arrows, a spear would usually be the primary weapon before closing in (or in an ambush situation).

For when you have no shield with you, then what do you do with the off-hand?

Grab a backup weapon when already close in. For barung it seems to have been common to hold the scabbard along the forearm as an impromptu security measure.

All this is possible, important, and/or essential because of the body-to-body distance when in weapon range. It's even more important with knife. It's this short range that makes European-style parry-riposte fencing non-optimal - the opponent can trap and move in to very close range; using the weapon this way also exposes the forearm a lot. This kind of stuff with the off-hand starts to get harder to do when you exceed about 24" of blade, but can work for longer weapons as an occasional technique.

Yup. Long story short, the Moro kris is not meant for fencing. And it worked well enough to keep the Spanish at bay.

Escrima/arnis/kali of the northern Philippines is big on two-weapons, either sword and knife or two short swords, or sticks originally acting as substitutes for such. But one of its roots is Spanish rapier and dagger, so it doesn't tell us that much about the use of the off-hand with kris.

I believe it's fair to assume that quite a bit of what we see in traditional Visayan styles has specifically been developed to counter Moro raiders.

A lot of Chinese martial arts are big on two weapons. There, it's mostly as an equaliser for short weapons against spear (in my opinion, the spear still has a large advantage, ceteris paribus, but two short weapons against spear is much better than one; against a naive spearman, it can work very well).

With so many Chinese styles obviously based on the spear, having to face a naive spearman would be akin to a lottery win though. In the old days that is...

Regards,
Kai

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by kai

Grab a backup weapon when already close in. For barung it seems to have been common to hold the scabbard along the forearm as an impromptu security measure.

Do you know any sources describing this? Or, more generally, technical details of fighting by Moros. It's easy to find descriptions of the preparation and appearance of juramentados, Moro fearlessness, etc., but hard to find anything technically useful about the way they fought.

In most photos of Moros with 2 weapons that I've seen, one of the weapons is a spear. (Could be small knives I don't see.) I can only remember one photo of a Moro with two swords (modern photo, an old man with 2 barong).

Originally Posted by kai

I believe it's fair to assume that quite a bit of what we see in traditional Visayan styles has specifically been developed to counter Moro raiders.

Yes. Many people push myth about escrima/kali/arnis descending from Moro martial arts, but that doesn't seem to have more substance than other empty martial arts origin myths. Instead, anti-Moro, with indigenous and Spanish elements.

N. R. Nepangue & C. C. Machador, "Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth", Xlibris, 2007, discusses this and the myths. I don't think they like the myths or the myth-makers very much.

Originally Posted by kai

With so many Chinese styles obviously based on the spear, having to face a naive spearman would be akin to a lottery win though. In the old days that is...

Serious Chinese martial artists would not be naive about spears, from either end of the spear. But most people who carried spears at some time in their life in China were probably not serious martial artists. It takes so little training to make somebody dangerous with a spear, so it isn't necessary to train them intensively for most purposes.