Loaded Flintlock - problem or not?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... The ball seemed held by the powder rather than the sides of the barrel....

No wonder. This been a non rifled bore, the bullet diameter is narrower than the barrel section (browse on windage). If nothing else was pushed into the barrel, the projectile might even fall off when you inclined the gun.
I made a fool of myself when i once ordered replica bullets for a Napoleonic musket. When the parcel arrived i noticed the balls were narrower than the gun barrel. Off i went and emailed a complaint to the supplier, telling him he sent me the wrong stuff. The guy must have laughed in the other side, whiling 'enlightening' me.
Mind you, i am not a shooter; it was just to complete the set. The musket is gone and so have the balls ... but not the lesson

[M ELEY]

Excellent work, CC! Glad you were able to remove that shot. Also, thank you, Fernando, for all of the information on the Liege makers (as well as the confusing markings behind their creation). CC, thanks for posting the pics of your Sea Service pistol at last. Mine is the exact copy, with the ELG marking on the barrel with no crown. There is a stamp on mine that is unfortunately indecipherable. There is, however, a V under a crown. This is an ordenance mark for Great Britain, is it not? No military marking, so I assume possibly made for privateer usage?

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone:

The punch ELG with a crown, began to use the late 1800s Any letter of the alphabet, with a crown was the punch of Inspector Exactly, I change the letter with an asterisk, for the confusion of the V crowned with V crowned the Bank of English tests. I have official papers Testbed Liege, but I have to look for them.

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)

[CutlassCollector]

Hi Mark,

Here is a picture of the ELG mark it is located on the side of the barrel underneath the wood. There are no other marks except within the lock as shown but I guess these are inspector marks or indicate the maker of the lock.
From yours and Fernando's comments I think that dates the pistol sometime between 1810 and 1830. No crown and small letters. Is yours a similar mark?

I have read that these were sold to many European countries and it's interesting that yours also has a British proof as Fernando K confirms.
CC

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

...I have read that these were sold to many European countries and it's interesting that yours also has a British proof as Fernando K confirms...

Apparently you misunderstood Fernando K, maybe due to translation issues .
What he means to say and i confirm is that, a letter under a crown was the Liege inspection mark, the letter being the initial of the assigned inspector.
Later they changed the crown to an asterik, to avoid the punction being confused with the London Viewed mark, namely in cases where the initial was that of inspector Mr. V something.

I would say that, in the case of Belgium guns being exported to London under official contracts, those would eventualy be subject to local (re) proof tests. In such case what you would have was the Birmingham or London (crest) proof marks and not the Viewed inspection punction ... or something like that .

Maybe this chart will put some light to it:

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

[CutlassCollector]

Thanks Fernando for the correction and the excellent link.
Apologies, Fernando K, for mis-reading your post.

CC

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

No wonder. This been a non rifled bore, the bullet diameter is narrower than the barrel section (browse on windage). If nothing else was pushed into the barrel, the projectile might even fall off when you inclined the gun.
I made a fool of myself when i once ordered replica bullets for a Napoleonic musket. When the parcel arrived i noticed the balls were narrower than the gun barrel. Off i went and emailed a complaint to the supplier, telling him he sent me the wrong stuff. The guy must have laughed in the other side, whiling 'enlightening' me.
Mind you, i am not a shooter; it was just to complete the set. The musket is gone and so have the balls ... but not the lesson

i bet the supplier's message was a bit patchy. (hope that humor translates into portugese )

anyway, rapid fire for the napoleonic rifled musket (and reg. musket) was possible without using a patch.

see the video here: location: northern portugal with wellington

what makes a good soldier? "The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather", Captain R. sharpe, talavera, july 1809
<-click the image

[Fernando K]

hi:

The two rifled muskets used in the Napoleonic wars were with Calepino (patch). On the English side, the Baker Rifle was fitted with a bullet and patch sewn on the French side, the rifle of Versailles (Versailles carabine) also with patch.

The English continued to use the Calepino (patch) on percussion. The rifle Brunswic. had a round bullet belt with stitched patch

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)

[kronckew]

..and they were not the easiest things to reload due to the tight fit, especially when they were fouled by sustained fire which further reduced the windage. some required a hammer to seat the fresh charge. i've heard the brunswick was especially contrary if fouled. some soldiers would do field cleaning by urinating down the barrel to clear the fouling. smooth bore muskets had more leaway.


then some bright spark invented the hollow based ogiveal pointed cylinder of lead we call the miné ball, which didn't require a cloth patch. they were also made up into paper cartridges using however nitrated paper which would combust as they were fired (i've made and fired these myself in a rifled percussion musket, also used cloth patched round balls in a .36 kentucky long rifle, used with a patch knife). early minés had a metal cup in the base, but it was found to be unnecessary, and actually would occasionally fire thru the bullet, leaving the main part stuck in the barrel, gain, requiring the screw, or if the hole was too big, an armourer.

the 19c was a huge experiment in bullet shapes, jackets, rifling styles well into the switch to smokeless powder which cured the worst of the fouling problems, and breech loaders that solved most of the other joys of muzzle loaders. including having to stand in lines to reload, breech loaders could thankfully be reloaded in the prone position, tho generals were slow to realise the days of the three rank volley fire were obsolete. (the famous rourke's drift saw the great majority of zulus killed hundreds of yards away. the movie took great dramatic license. the main body at islandwana didn't fair as well tho with their lines)

the video was not meant to show the 'official' regulation reload, but a battlefield expedient. the spat ball world have reduced power, but at close range, it didn't matter as much. the aim ws to get the lead down field as quick as possible to break the french columns.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...i bet the supplier's message was a bit patchy. (hope that humor translates into portugese )]...

Well, it was only partly patchy. I already knew about the windage (wind=vento in portuguese), by reading about it several years ago in a rare Portuguese book on portable firearms (published in 1887) that i was lucky to acquire. But one thing is theory and the other is practice. In other words, i should have given it a second thought before i complained on the 'abnormality'; wouldn't have played the fool

Originally Posted by kronckew

...see the video here: location: northern portugal with wellington

It seems as the video depicts a scene in (the battle of) Talavera, before defeating the French. This is near Toledo, well inside Spain.

Originally Posted by kronckew

...what makes a good soldier? "The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather", Captain R. sharpe, talavera, july 1809]

Sharpe managed to be sharp enough to press his soldiers into a Guiness record of loading velocity. Other strategies, those coming from above him, drove the allies to final success.
But these are old stories