Loaded Flintlock - problem or not?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...I do know that the ELG logo underwent a subtle change post 1830, being the same letters, but in larger form. They still made flintlocks after this time period, so this helps to determine the ones made after 'Age of Fighting Sail'.

This is a long story .
The imposing of Liege proof marks has been quite problematic since the 17th century. At first the gunmakers could punction the proof mark in their own shop ... making this suspicious. Then some only punctioned the initial E (eprouvé=proofed) evading the origin identification.
Establishment of regular definite proof marking (ELG) was only achieved with the Napoleonic occupation (1810-1815), however declining soon after under Dutch rule. Those guys were realy undisciplined.
Intermediary marks were meanwhile edited ( EL as from 1853), depending on the type of (multiple) barrel and their use, besides the famous Perron (as from 1846 - see atttachment) for the chamber of the various system guns.
Meanwhile the ELG mark was added a crown over the oval as from the second half 19th century.
Also apparently the two forms (dimensions) of the crowned punction serve to identify disting types of barrel proof, the larger for muzzle loaders and the smaller for self loading pistols and the like. I realize this is the mark we often see in second half 19th century mass production revolvers out there.
Apart from a 'few other minor' punctions and the above exposition subject to correction, here you have a resume of the Liege (Belgium) proof marks saga.

... And i hope by now that CC is not mad for his thread hijack .

.

[Pukka Bundook]

Another problem with firing off an old loaded gun, is that someone may have loaded it with some other powder it wasn't made for. A lot of powders are black!.........but they are not "Gunpowder", ie, black powder.
It is also quite likely that a loaded weapon could have been loaded in the last few years.
In the last year I have purchased two that were loaded, One an English double sporting gun, the other French.
The French one was wadded with newspaper (Obituary page!) of someone apparently died in 1983 if I remember correctly.
Many of us shoot these old arms, and it isn't outside the realms of possibility that they are occasionally left loaded.
Drawing a charge is normally no bother, and nothing to be alarmed about.
Those that use these old guns withdraw charges as a matter of course.
Keep your head out of the way of the muzzle, and use a good worm on your rod, and all will be fine.
Normally we don't bother wetting the powder first, as it makes it harder to clean out. Old powder can set into a cake, so must be broken up to get it all out. Clean & oil the barrel afterwards to prevent rust.

Richard.

[Shakethetrees]

Second phase of the great BP experiment is in!

Water dampened powder was allowed to sit for a few hours and an attempt was made to light it. It was heavily saturated with excess water pooling around the edges. No surprise here- it didn't light.

So I dried the mixture slowly. It formed a hard cake with crystals of saltpeter growing up the sides of the stainless bowl. Once I chipped it out, a match was held beneath it. It reluctantly lit, slower than the oil treated powder, but it still lit and burned slowly. Not so slowly that it would not be hazardous if contained in a barrel, though.

So, to the collecting community, who might occasionally come across a loaded antique firearm that requires unloading, be careful. Saturate the charge thoroughly with water to excess. Let it sit for a few hours and only when you are perfectly sure the charge has been soaking for a few hours, should you then attempt to pull the charge.

Or,

Call a competent gunsmith and let them take the risk. They have the experience and training that will get them through the hurdles.

Tread lightly!

[CutlassCollector]

Unloaded!
Reasonably the pistol had been sitting loaded for probably well over 100 years, so I figured it's not a danger in the sense that it could explode or just go off. The risk is in me creating a spark while mucking about trying to dislodge the ball.

So first I used a syringe to fill the chamber with water through the fire hole and I kept it topped up for 24 hours. I made an extractor tool - metal strip with right angle and a hole to take a self cutting screw. Then with the barrel full of water I screwed into the ball and on third attempt got the ball out. The ball seemed held by the powder rather than the sides of the barrel.
The powder was caked rock solid and took a lot more work to remove than the ball with some forceful scraping required. I kept the barrel full of water during this as well.

Having a now very wet pistol I decided to dismantle it to dry out and oil. A bonus was finding the ELG mark on the barrel under the wood. I was wondering about that and many thanks Fernando for your explanation of the Leige marks, none of which I knew.

I did not expect to have to unload and dismantle my first flintlock pistol but it's been a good learning experience. Thanks to everyone who contributed advice and suggestions.
CC

[Shakethetrees]

Congrats!

Once you get past the uncertainty, it's all a matter of persistence and the right tools, guided by a few rules.

I bought a signal cannon years ago at auction and found it to be loaded. It had a bore of about 7/8" but a rod would not seat to the vent hole, or anywhere near it, for that matter.

After fashioning a wiper from welding rods I went to work. The stuff that came out was amazing. I wish that I photographed it. No projectiles, but, in layers, newspaper, smokeless shotgun powder topped by newspaper followed by some silver colored firecracker powder topped by more newspaper and finally more smokeless shotgun powder topped by--get this-- a large wad of black plastic trash bag!

Things were so tightly compacted that I bent and distorted my rigged up wiper!

Had the nimrod who loaded this cannon been successful in cooking it off, it would have been catastrophic. His ignorance saved him, though, as his first layer was a wad of newspaper that very effectively blocked the vent.

[fernando]

Congratulations CC for all success ... visibly achieved without much complication

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... The ball seemed held by the powder rather than the sides of the barrel....

No wonder. This been a non rifled bore, the bullet diameter is narrower than the barrel section (browse on windage). If nothing else was pushed into the barrel, the projectile might even fall off when you inclined the gun.
I made a fool of myself when i once ordered replica bullets for a Napoleonic musket. When the parcel arrived i noticed the balls were narrower than the gun barrel. Off i went and emailed a complaint to the supplier, telling him he sent me the wrong stuff. The guy must have laughed in the other side, whiling 'enlightening' me.
Mind you, i am not a shooter; it was just to complete the set. The musket is gone and so have the balls ... but not the lesson

[M ELEY]

Excellent work, CC! Glad you were able to remove that shot. Also, thank you, Fernando, for all of the information on the Liege makers (as well as the confusing markings behind their creation). CC, thanks for posting the pics of your Sea Service pistol at last. Mine is the exact copy, with the ELG marking on the barrel with no crown. There is a stamp on mine that is unfortunately indecipherable. There is, however, a V under a crown. This is an ordenance mark for Great Britain, is it not? No military marking, so I assume possibly made for privateer usage?

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone:

The punch ELG with a crown, began to use the late 1800s Any letter of the alphabet, with a crown was the punch of Inspector Exactly, I change the letter with an asterisk, for the confusion of the V crowned with V crowned the Bank of English tests. I have official papers Testbed Liege, but I have to look for them.

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

No wonder. This been a non rifled bore, the bullet diameter is narrower than the barrel section (browse on windage). If nothing else was pushed into the barrel, the projectile might even fall off when you inclined the gun.
I made a fool of myself when i once ordered replica bullets for a Napoleonic musket. When the parcel arrived i noticed the balls were narrower than the gun barrel. Off i went and emailed a complaint to the supplier, telling him he sent me the wrong stuff. The guy must have laughed in the other side, whiling 'enlightening' me.
Mind you, i am not a shooter; it was just to complete the set. The musket is gone and so have the balls ... but not the lesson

i bet the supplier's message was a bit patchy. (hope that humor translates into portugese )

anyway, rapid fire for the napoleonic rifled musket (and reg. musket) was possible without using a patch.

see the video here: location: northern portugal with wellington

what makes a good soldier? "The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather", Captain R. sharpe, talavera, july 1809
<-click the image

[Fernando K]

hi:

The two rifled muskets used in the Napoleonic wars were with Calepino (patch). On the English side, the Baker Rifle was fitted with a bullet and patch sewn on the French side, the rifle of Versailles (Versailles carabine) also with patch.

The English continued to use the Calepino (patch) on percussion. The rifle Brunswic. had a round bullet belt with stitched patch

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...i bet the supplier's message was a bit patchy. (hope that humor translates into portugese )]...

Well, it was only partly patchy. I already knew about the windage (wind=vento in portuguese), by reading about it several years ago in a rare Portuguese book on portable firearms (published in 1887) that i was lucky to acquire. But one thing is theory and the other is practice. In other words, i should have given it a second thought before i complained on the 'abnormality'; wouldn't have played the fool

Originally Posted by kronckew

...see the video here: location: northern portugal with wellington

It seems as the video depicts a scene in (the battle of) Talavera, before defeating the French. This is near Toledo, well inside Spain.

Originally Posted by kronckew

...what makes a good soldier? "The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather", Captain R. sharpe, talavera, july 1809]

Sharpe managed to be sharp enough to press his soldiers into a Guiness record of loading velocity. Other strategies, those coming from above him, drove the allies to final success.
But these are old stories