Loaded Flintlock - problem or not?

M ELEY · 24th September 2014, 02:41 AM

Hello, CC. I have one of those as well. I'd be interested to know the markings on yours. I'm told they were exported to the Nordic countries, Britain and possibly Africa?? Mine has the standard ELG (Elgin) marking, but I seem to remember another. I'll have to look at it when I'm home again...

kronckew · 24th September 2014, 10:24 AM

oil and ammonium nitrate makes a very nasty explosive. google ' nitrate' and 'motor oil. then wait for NSA and/or homeland security/ATF to pay you a visit. the 1947 houston ship channel disaster was one of the largest non-nuclear explosions ever. 2300 tons of the stuff. wiki linky

i suspect 3in1 and potassium nitrate (saltpeter) would be similarly dangerous.

wear your saftey goggles justincase when you ignite it. you may also want to wear flameproof gloves as well. i didn't once, disposing of some black powder before i moved from alabama, i got 2nd degree burns on the fingers of my hand that held the match i lit a trail of BP with. it smarted. for weeks.

awaiting your results.

addendum: found a 1932 patent (US 1882853 A ) for black powder fuses using castor oil to slow down burning time. it noted that combustion propagation was 'unreliable' with more than 5% oil. it also recommended using a water emulsion of water and a miscable oil instead.

water or oil down the muzzle may or may not get past the ball sealing off access to the powder charge, injecting it into the pan or cap hole also may not work very well. never think, now it is safe so i can pound on it.

attached is a photo of a toolkit for a flintlock, the double helix ramrod tip was screwed on & used to extract the patch or patched ball. if that could not get sufficient purchase the the screwed tip that looks like an upside down wood screw was screwed into the lead projectile. if that failed, the whole barrel would need to be removed from the stock & the breech plug unscrewed to give access to remove the powder and ball. initial procedure would have been to re-prime the pan (or replace the percussion cap with a new one) & try again to fire it. in combat that whle procedure was off course impractical, so you'd drop the darn thing and pick one up from the nearest corpse of one of your companions who didn't need his anymore. or, if an officer, draw your sword.

in any case, NEVER point the muzzle at anything you hold dear. that of course includes never looking down the barrel muzzle. never put your hand's palm on the ramrod end to push it down, even a small squib discharge can spear you. a full discharge would put a rather larger hole in your hand. better to lose a couple finger tips.

fernando · 24th September 2014, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Mine has the standard ELG (Elgin)...

Those initials mean something different, Mark; E for Eprouvé (proofed) and LG for Liege
Definitely not Elgin

.

M ELEY · 25th September 2014, 05:31 AM

Yikes!! You are right, Fernando! I meant Liege, the famous maker in Belgium. I guess my sleep-addled brain was making the ELG logo into another weapons maker! Thanks for the heads-up!

batjka · 25th September 2014, 01:46 PM

Why not just prime it, put in a new flint and shoot the damn thing? Aside from making the pistol safe it would also be an interesting excursion into the past.

CutlassCollector · 25th September 2014, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

Why not just prime it, put in a new flint and shoot the damn thing? Aside from making the pistol safe it would also be an interesting excursion into the past.

Yes, sounds like a good idea at first.
But this is what Norm Flayderman says about loaded antique firearms in his reference book ...."do not under any circumstances, attempt to remove it (the powder charge) by firing the gun....extremely hazardous".
Consider that the effect of 150 years of corrosive black powder and a seized in ball could possibly rupture the barrel. A long piece of string may well save your hand but certainly not your investment.
CC

Shakethetrees · 25th September 2014, 10:48 PM

...and the results are in!

I saturated a bit of BP with 3 in 1 oil as shown in the images I posted.

Unfortunately, the porosity of the fireproof crucible sucked the oil away from the powder, and left it high and dry!

I repeated it in a stainless steel cup, saturated the powder as before and waited 24 hours. The result is the powder ignited slowly and somewhat reluctantly, and burned much more slowly than fresh, unsaturated powder does.

I stand corrected.

Do not use oil. Yes, the volatility was significantly reduced, but, as it still burned, I wouldn't recommend it. Period.

I'm doing the same with water. It's soaking right now, tomorrow I will take the water away and dry the powder before I attempt to light it.

More results later.

It's great to have an excuse to do a little experimentation like this that could have benefits to the collecting community at large.

And, besides, it's great to have a brief return to my childhood!

Shakethetrees · 25th September 2014, 11:06 PM

This reminds me of a situation I had in April of 2001.

I was at Charles DeGaulle airport waiting in line to get a boarding pass.

As luck would have it I found a nice little French flintlock pocket pistol, c.1760 at the Marche Paul Bert at the Puces.

While waiting in line, (and remember, this is pre 9-11 when security was a lot looser.) the lady asked if we had anything that we might have that could cause a problem down the line, as my baggage still was not checked.

I called her over and mentioned the antique pistol. You should have seen the look on her face! She then nervously called her manager, who was French, over, and mentioned our dilemma.

He asked to have a look at it, so I took it out and handed it over. One quick look, he gave it back with the admonition, "Monsieur, the only way this pistol could be a danger is if you threw it at someone."

So I packed it up and flew home, no other problems.

Jet lag took over, and, being unable to sleep, I got the pistol out and began making a top jaw. (The original was missing when I bought it.)

Just for grins, I decided to replace the ramrod, also missing. Lo and behold, as I was measuring the depth of the bore, to my surprise I found it was still loaded!

A little oil down the bore and the ball and charge came out.,the wadding used was tow, a fine straw like thin dried grass. The remains of the powder was up dampened by the oil, so I lit it and it burned as one would expect.

So, the old admonition of treating each and every gun as though it IS loaded, really rang true.

CutlassCollector · 26th September 2014, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...and the results are in!

...............
Do not use oil. Yes, the volatility was significantly reduced, but, as it still burned, I wouldn't recommend it. Period.

Hi Shakethetrees, Great work and thanks for taking the trouble on behalf of, not only myself, but the collecting community as a whole. The result is interesting and dispels the myth that oil neutralizes black powder. I'm sure a lot of members await your further results.
Thanks also JamesKelly for questioning the myth!!
CC

Andrew · 25th September 2014, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

Why not just prime it, put in a new flint and shoot the damn thing? Aside from making the pistol safe it would also be an interesting excursion into the past.

Because:

fernando · 25th September 2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yikes!! You are right, Fernando! I meant Liege, the famous maker in Belgium. I guess my sleep-addled brain was making the ELG logo into another weapons maker! Thanks for the heads-up!

If i may again, Mark

Liege is not a specific arms maker but the city where an abundant number of arms makers worked; a center like Birmingham in Britain or Eibar in the Basque Country.
The oval ELG punction is the Government proof house mark. Liege was a Bishopric Principality in the Waloon region, before it became part of Belgium Kingdom, reason why we generaly say that a gun is made in Belgium, whereas the gold period in which their arms making achieved notorious quality was Liege. When the 19th century arrived their massified production was such (copies, replicas, foreing contracts) that their quality was no longer a symptom of quality but instead one imponderable.

24th September 2014, 10:24 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	oil and ammonium nitrate makes a very nasty explosive. google ' nitrate' and 'motor oil. then wait for NSA and/or homeland security/ATF to pay you a visit. the 1947 houston ship channel disaster was one of the largest non-nuclear explosions ever. 2300 tons of the stuff. wiki linky i suspect 3in1 and potassium nitrate (saltpeter) would be similarly dangerous. wear your saftey goggles justincase when you ignite it. you may also want to wear flameproof gloves as well. i didn't once, disposing of some black powder before i moved from alabama, i got 2nd degree burns on the fingers of my hand that held the match i lit a trail of BP with. it smarted. for weeks. awaiting your results. addendum: found a 1932 patent (US 1882853 A ) for black powder fuses using castor oil to slow down burning time. it noted that combustion propagation was 'unreliable' with more than 5% oil. it also recommended using a water emulsion of water and a miscable oil instead. water or oil down the muzzle may or may not get past the ball sealing off access to the powder charge, injecting it into the pan or cap hole also may not work very well. never think, now it is safe so i can pound on it. attached is a photo of a toolkit for a flintlock, the double helix ramrod tip was screwed on & used to extract the patch or patched ball. if that could not get sufficient purchase the the screwed tip that looks like an upside down wood screw was screwed into the lead projectile. if that failed, the whole barrel would need to be removed from the stock & the breech plug unscrewed to give access to remove the powder and ball. initial procedure would have been to re-prime the pan (or replace the percussion cap with a new one) & try again to fire it. in combat that whle procedure was off course impractical, so you'd drop the darn thing and pick one up from the nearest corpse of one of your companions who didn't need his anymore. or, if an officer, draw your sword. in any case, NEVER point the muzzle at anything you hold dear. that of course includes never looking down the barrel muzzle. never put your hand's palm on the ramrod end to push it down, even a small squib discharge can spear you. a full discharge would put a rather larger hole in your hand. better to lose a couple finger tips. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 24th September 2014 at 11:20 AM.

24th September 2014, 02:41 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello, CC. I have one of those as well. I'd be interested to know the markings on yours. I'm told they were exported to the Nordic countries, Britain and possibly Africa?? Mine has the standard ELG (Elgin) marking, but I seem to remember another. I'll have to look at it when I'm home again...

25th September 2014, 05:31 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Yikes!! You are right, Fernando! I meant Liege, the famous maker in Belgium. I guess my sleep-addled brain was making the ELG logo into another weapons maker! Thanks for the heads-up!

25th September 2014, 01:46 PM	#5
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Why not just prime it, put in a new flint and shoot the damn thing? Aside from making the pistol safe it would also be an interesting excursion into the past.

25th September 2014, 10:48 PM	#7
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	...and the results are in! I saturated a bit of BP with 3 in 1 oil as shown in the images I posted. Unfortunately, the porosity of the fireproof crucible sucked the oil away from the powder, and left it high and dry! I repeated it in a stainless steel cup, saturated the powder as before and waited 24 hours. The result is the powder ignited slowly and somewhat reluctantly, and burned much more slowly than fresh, unsaturated powder does. I stand corrected. Do not use oil. Yes, the volatility was significantly reduced, but, as it still burned, I wouldn't recommend it. Period. I'm doing the same with water. It's soaking right now, tomorrow I will take the water away and dry the powder before I attempt to light it. More results later. It's great to have an excuse to do a little experimentation like this that could have benefits to the collecting community at large. And, besides, it's great to have a brief return to my childhood!

25th September 2014, 11:06 PM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	This reminds me of a situation I had in April of 2001. I was at Charles DeGaulle airport waiting in line to get a boarding pass. As luck would have it I found a nice little French flintlock pocket pistol, c.1760 at the Marche Paul Bert at the Puces. While waiting in line, (and remember, this is pre 9-11 when security was a lot looser.) the lady asked if we had anything that we might have that could cause a problem down the line, as my baggage still was not checked. I called her over and mentioned the antique pistol. You should have seen the look on her face! She then nervously called her manager, who was French, over, and mentioned our dilemma. He asked to have a look at it, so I took it out and handed it over. One quick look, he gave it back with the admonition, "Monsieur, the only way this pistol could be a danger is if you threw it at someone." So I packed it up and flew home, no other problems. Jet lag took over, and, being unable to sleep, I got the pistol out and began making a top jaw. (The original was missing when I bought it.) Just for grins, I decided to replace the ramrod, also missing. Lo and behold, as I was measuring the depth of the bore, to my surprise I found it was still loaded! A little oil down the bore and the ball and charge came out.,the wadding used was tow, a fine straw like thin dried grass. The remains of the powder was up dampened by the oil, so I lit it and it burned as one would expect. So, the old admonition of treating each and every gun as though it IS loaded, really rang true.