Dime el Aterro

[Gavin Nugent]

I am hoping someone can point to exacting origins of sword blades carrying the stamp

* Dime ~ El * Aterro *

* Dime ~ El *
* Aterro*

I have seen it in both the layouts above with the first appearing to be much older and with differing text and star stamps than the second one...perhaps an indication that the mark or guild has been around for a very long time....I am guessing 17th and 18th centuries.

Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks

Gavin

[fernando]

I Gav,
May i turn the complicometer on?
Have you seen this?
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=4803
What does a name that sounds Spanish in an Indian sword ? in the minimum, bizarre .
Alright, it could be, or is indeed, a trade (Firangi) blade.
Dime, besides being the $ ten cent, would mean 'tell me' in Castillian. El Aterro would mean the 'landfill' (embankment). But we know that persons names are not necessarily translatable.
I wish you luck with this one .


-

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the Spanish interpretation.

Literally meaning there might be something in the naming you have provided but bear with me on my little journey.

I find it interesting the separation of stars. Not unknown to other type of trade blades but the stars typically indicated punctuation.

If we follow the stars as punctuation, the translation is very literal and holds perfect meaning with swords;

Dime El = "Say to Me"
Alterro = "I pull down"

I would want this invocation on my sword, it would make me feel pretty confident.

Google will only unearth the link you have provided and this version of the marking is in my opinion the newer version based on the others I have viewed.

I am certain these are Trade blades, I have one with a massive 41 inch blade in a stunning Khanda hilt.

While Spanish is language, I believe these likely entered India through Portuguese trade and ports.

Perhaps others can also chime in, perhaps provenance swords are known within European circles.

Gav

[fernando]

Judging by what i usualy observe, the application of stars (asteriscs) has a more esthectical than punctuation sense ... i don't know.
Assuming that the wording in the blade is a motto, like those often appearing in navajas, a few allegories may extracted from this one.
The verb 'Aterrar' may also be interpreted as demolishing, burying, cover with earth, frightening ...
So from here you can speculate on various forms, like:
Tell me and i bury.
Tell me and i strike.
Tell me and i knock down.
How's that for an approach ?

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Fernando....the approach I am after....more the angle of my opening query...Some more;

Whilst the "Motto" appears Spanish, is the blade?

Where did it come from?

Is it German or similar with a foreign mark to the blade?

Was the motto to stay in vogue and cutting edge at the time, ie; a marketing concept?

Was the stamp just a trader's stamp, blade made in one place, bought by someone and stamped by him/them and sent for export by that person/s?

Are there swords or sword blades of a pure EU or Hispanic ilk that carry this mark?

I have looked through some of Blair’s work nothing yet, I'll look through Wallace collection again, try Wagner later in the week and perhaps Caravana later too....just throwing it out there in the hope someone more versed in EU blades may have already crossed this bridge....my library isn't geared for EU blades...

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Gav, thank you for entering this concurrently in the trademarks thread, as I think it is an important addition to be archived with pending outcome. I think you and Fernando have presented key insight into the nature of the stamped inscription which appears to be some kind of motto or invocation.

The example Fernando posted of a tulwar appearing to be a Mughal piece mounted with a blade with this same inscription and configuration is most interesting.
* DIME & EL *
* ATERRO *
I cannot be certain, but it does seem the figure between dime and el is an ampersand, which of course signifies the Latin 'in et' =and. It seems that most of these inscriptions/names or variations on these blades use symbols
like asterisks, stars or seemingly punctuated dots as decorative additions rather than actual grammatical inclusions. This aligns with the common use of various symbols and devices in the completion and beginning of words or names, such as the cross and orb; anchor and sometimes others.

The ampersand (if that is indeed what it is) would seen to defy literal translation of these words gramatically, but if this is a stamp (apparantly there are at least two of these blades, suggesting more as well), placed by an enterprising blade importer, it may of course be transliteration. The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined. The 'el' seems misplaced as 'atterar' as a verb means in variant to knock down; strike or bury etc. The wording and placement do not make sense as has been pointed out, but the context of these words compellingly suggests the nature of a motto or slogan rather than a name.

On the tulwar in addition to this inscription there is the 'twig' mark which though associated with North Italy makers is known to have been is use by German makers in the 16th century into the 17th (Wallace Collection). It is also known that Solingen makers applied spurious inscriptions such as these on blades for trade, and misspellings and transliterations were not uncommon. The use of the 'twig' mark on the tulwar blade in conjunction with this inscription suggests likely German make for the blade. The North Italian configuration of the inscription components and the spurious 'twig' mark would seem to corroborate that.
The cogwheel shape used in the manner of stars or other motif with these words is also a shape often seen on both German and Italian blades and perceived associated with certain makers in degree.

I would think that perhaps these words are likely disambiguated from either a heraldic or group/patriotic motto and transposed in a stamp intended to simulate North Italian inscriptions on many of thier blades. In many ways this reminds me of the 'Spanish motto' on blades of the 18th century (possibly earlier) which were inscribed in a sort of combination of Latin and Spanish which was not entirely correct in either, but easily decipherable.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The word 'di' (I am no linguist so bear with me) if I understand correctly is part of the two word 'tell me' which should be 'di me' spaced rather than joined...

I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

I'm no linguist either, but i guess that ...

'Tell me' in spanish (castillian) is not spaced : Dime.
And, by the way, in italian is not spaced either : Dimmi.
... Finaly in portuguese, united by an hyphen: Diz-me.
:

.

Thanks for that Fernando, live and learn

[callumm]

I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland).

This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'.

So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down?

Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms?

[fernando]

It seems as the dechiphering of these marks is far from being cracked.
I have been in contact with two specialists in Spanish swords. They both assume they are intrigued by this set up of words, which they had never seen. The approach that this is a call to violence is most improbable. Spanish allusions are basicaly on the pious side and not threat texts. Also the the manner the wording is separated brings no conclusion. Alisandro is not recorded as a Spanish sword smith; maybe an Italian ?
So back to square one, guys .

[M ELEY]

Awhile back, I had a Spanish broadsword 18th c. with the classic 6-sided Spanish blade with double fullers marked, in Spanish, with the traditional logo 'Do not draw me without reason, do not sheath me without honor.' made for the Spanish market, the balde was actually German, marked 'Solingen'. I know Spanish steel was the finest in the world, but I assume colonial items destined to Spanish ports and beyond were not so picky. Could this blade be German-made and the saying be in line, although somewhat more threatening, to the typical motto above? It would explain why the Spanish translation isn't spot-on (being from an outside source). We do know many German blades went to the Middle East and Africa. Just a very big guess-

Also, forgot to mention on that awesome backsword, many of the Scottish and English broadsword blades of the 18th c. were German-made. I've seen many baskethilts marked Solingen on the blade and, of course, we have that whole Houndslow School thing going on in the U.K.

[fernando]

German blades ... why not ?
The Spanish possibility starts to evade.
However after a few thoughts, the word composition is so otherwise that i would not see it as a corruption or mispelling of a Spanish (Castillian) sentence, but a smith fantasy.
The odd separation, the wrong conjugation, the so unusual & and all that.
... all these "Aterro" variations coming from the same spot, naturaly.

[fernando]

I have received the last of three advices i requested from Spanish sword connoisseurs.
Again the Spanish origin for these blades was a possibility put aside.
A different approach was instead brought to consideration, as being the inverted position, that is, Spanish blades being imported from Germany, when home production did not suffice the needs, and a clumsy conversion of a German text to Spanish.
Well, a new perspective .

.

[M ELEY]

I was guessing. Glad to have more knowledgible folks support the possibility. Now, what is the connection with a German-made, Spanish style blade ending up on an East Indain sword? Trade routes??

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by callumm

I also have a sword with one of these aterro blades, this one is a basket-hilted backsword (non-highland).

This one has another word in front of the others. It's not clear what it says, but to my eyes it looks like it might be 'Alisandro'.

So would this be something like Alisandro says (this sword) pulls down?

Gavin have you seen the inscription with this word in other forms?

Hi Callumm,

I missed this post previously.

I have not until now seen this extra mark but I would like to bring something to light about this sword blade you present, something that has perhaps been overlooked in the discussion.

To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be.

Gavin

[fernando]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

... To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be. ...

No doubt about that, Gav; i have noticed that too, but neglected such angle. However in a fantasy it could be a 'come and go', that is, a Firangi blade being traded to India for a local style sword and later remounted on an Eurpean type hilt.
On the other hand, a third possibility is now on the table; an Indian blade, with nonsense inscriptions ?

[Gavin Nugent]

One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?

[Jim McDougall]

Gav,
This interesting basket hilt seems pretty composite to me, and as you have well observed, there are indications of a previous langet presence as seen on khanda (firangi). This well worn old Solingen blade is of the form often seen on many examples of these firangi.
I recall many discussions with Juan Perez well over a decade ago when we determined that the "Spanish motto' swords were never produced in Spain but in Solingen for export to the Spanish colonies.
There are considerable volumes of these 'dragoon' blades which seem produced around 1760s to 1780s and are usually of the hexagonal section Mark has noted, however there seem to have been some other variations.

These ended up in the frontier regions of New Spain, as well as in Cuba and other Spanish ports of call, and were often mounted in the Bilbo and cuphilt forms of arming swords, as well as profoundly shortened on espada anchas.

This 'motto' seems to have been around for some time prior according to research done by Fernando, and existed in French as well. In most cases these 'mottos' were typically in 'distorted' syntax, wording and spellings as Solingen smiths fashioned these inscriptions to suit various clientele.

It is certainly similar case with this 'motto' or 'phrase', and as has been shown the blades bearing them ended up moving through trade networks an all manner of diffusion. Many of these blades have undoubtedly had remarkable 'working lives'.

It would appear this one found a new home with an English basket guard, what appears to be a Scottish conical pommel, and as noted, a well worn backsword blade, all 18th century components, with an interesting cord wrap which resembles that I have seen on Chinese da dao ring pommel type swords (not inferring that China is in any way involved with this sword) .

It is hard to say whether this assemblage might be in colonial cirumstances and using available parts, however, I would point out that British forces were well established in India in the 18th century with the EIC. A great many basket hilts ended up there with the British army, and it would not be surprising to see components of these 18th century dragoon swords hilts and good German blades (from previous Indian use) joined before and after Seringapatam (1799). I have found instances of many of the Indian forces after that battle and during British occupation ended up in British military units, and much as in the native military unit traditions which evolved in the British Raj, many swords for native sergeants and officers were rather ersatz type examples.
I have seen photos of ranking officials and officers of such units later, in one instance an officer of the 'Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt of apparently some vintage, the image from around 1880.