Kris Junggayan Silver Gold Inlay Filigree

RSWORD · 9th September 2014, 12:00 PM

Very well said Charles!

Ian · 9th September 2014, 12:49 PM

Jose:

Your restoration work is second to none IMO. I remember how you brought my old barung back to life with its brass inlaid blade, and how much you toiled on that piece until it was right and you had mastered the technique. This is another excellent example.

Indianajones, I don't understand where you are coming from with such a strong outburst. How is what was done with this sword different from removing rust and grime from an old piece, etching the blade, polishing the metal, and making it look like it would in its original culture? Would you consider those changes "ruining" an old piece also? Would you let a sleeping beauty slumber on indefinitely, or would you want to wake her up in all her former glory?

Jose brings these back to life in a way which is respectful and in keeping with the tradition in which it was created.

VANDOO · 9th September 2014, 04:24 PM

I UNDERSTAND BOTH POINTS OF VIEW AND LEAVE IT UP TO EACH COLLECTOR TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES. TO PUT A WIG AND MAKEUP ON A OLD BALD MAN TRYING TO RESTORE HIS FORMER YOUTH AND LOOKS IS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY.
BUT A GOOD RESTORATION OF A WEAPON TO ITS EARLIER ORIGINAL CONDITION IS NOT THE SAME THING.

IF DONE PROPERLY USING THE SAME TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS TO RESTORE IT TO ITS ORIGINAL FORM AND NOT ADDING ANY EMBELLISHMENTS (DESIGNS, TALESMEN, ECT.) I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. ON THE OTHER HAND IT MAKES THE ITEM LOOK NEW AND IS ALTERING ITS CURRENT CONDITION. THIS MAY INCREASE ITS WORTH TO SOME AND MAY RUIN IT FOR OTHERS DEPENDING ON THE POINT OF VIEW.
THE DAMAGE AND WEAR TO THE OBJECT OVER THE YEARS MAY HINT AT ITS HISTORY. WAS THE SILVER, GOLD AND JEWELS STRIPPED DURING HARD TIMES BY THE OWNER? PERHAPS IT WAS TAKEN IN BATTLE BY A ENEMY AND STRIPPED OR MODIFIED TO FIT ANOTHER CULTURE. THE LOOK OF A LESS PERFECT OLD WAR HORSE SPURS THE IMAGINATION AND BRINGS TO MIND ALL THESE QUESTIONS. I JUDGE EACH ITEM INDIVIDUALLY ON ITS OWN MERIT AND AS MOST OF MY COLLECTION IS NOT OF THE HIGH QUALITY THERE IS NO SILVER , GOLD OR JEWELS TO RESTORE.
WHILE WE ALL AGREE ON TAKING STEPS TO PRESERVE ITEMS THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICTING VIEWS ON RESTORATION.
I AM PLEASED THAT JOSE IS WORKING TO LEARN AND FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONAL TECHNIQUES AND THAT PROJECTS ARE AVAILABLE FOR HIM TO WORK ON AND LEARN FROM. I THINK HE LIKELY JUDGES EACH ITEM BEFORE HE DECIDES TO RESTORE OR LEAVE IT AS IS AS WE ALL DO. IT IS GOOD TO HAVE A MEMBER WITH THE DESIRE AND SKILLS TO DO A PROPER JOB OF RESTORATION AND KEEP THE SKILLS ALIVE.

Sajen · 9th September 2014, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I UNDERSTAND BOTH POINTS OF VIEW AND LEAVE IT UP TO EACH COLLECTOR TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES. ......
WHILE WE ALL AGREE ON TAKING STEPS TO PRESERVE ITEMS THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICTING VIEWS ON RESTORATION.

I remember several threads where it was discussed how ethnograhic weapons have to look or should be preserved for future generations and I am sure that there every time will be different points of view.
Here only two examples.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=ngombe look from post #21
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tajong, look from post #34
By all this threads was the discussion very respectful and has shown tolerance for the different points of view, this I miss unfortunately in post #10 of this thread.

Emanuel · 10th September 2014, 03:46 PM

Nice work Battara!

What is the symbolic representation of that inlay, a volcano?

It strongly brought to mind this piece.

Could the complex pattern welding attempt to bring to mind the same "volcanic" symbol, or vice versa, could the inlay be an homage to the twistcore?

Emanuel

Emanuel · 10th September 2014, 03:58 PM

Another thought.

The quality of the silver pommel casting is spectacular. What surprises me a bit is the simplicity of the silver inlay on the blade. The patterns are crude relative to the refinement of the pommel.

Are we seeing a gap in technological skill/talent between casting and inlay craftsmen, or different sensibilities regarding what is important or what requires more detail (ie. the pommel is more visible than the blade, hence exhibits more refinement, the blade is used and hence needs rougher decoration).

Could the inlay and pommel have been added at different times in the piece's life, by different owners, again with different concerns or ability to afford embellishment?

Thanks,
Emanuel

VANDOO · 10th September 2014, 07:01 PM

I THINK THE SILVER DECORATION ON THE POMMEL, GRIP AND FERULE ARE JUST THAT, DECORATION TO SHOW STATUS AND WEALTH.
THE INLAY ON THE BLADE IS PROBABLY TALISMANIC AND THERE PERHAPS TO CONTAIN AND HARNESS THE SPIRIT IN THE BLADE THUS MAKING IT A WEAPON IN THE SPIRIT WORLD AS WELL AS IN THIS ONE.
I HAVE NOT HEARD ANY REFERENCE TO A VOLCANO BEING REPRESENTED IN THE LORE OF MORO KRIS. THERE ARE VOLCANOES IN THE AREA SO THERE ARE SURE TO BE OLD BELIEFS AND SUPERSTITIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM. IN OTHER MYTHOLOGY THE GOD VULCAN'S FORGE WAS OFTEN THOUGHT TO BE IN VOLCANOES. A INTERESTING THOUGHT.

10th September 2014, 03:46 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nice work Battara! What is the symbolic representation of that inlay, a volcano? It strongly brought to mind this piece. Could the complex pattern welding attempt to bring to mind the same "volcanic" symbol, or vice versa, could the inlay be an homage to the twistcore? Emanuel Attached Images

9th September 2014, 12:00 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Very well said Charles!

9th September 2014, 12:49 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Jose: Your restoration work is second to none IMO. I remember how you brought my old barung back to life with its brass inlaid blade, and how much you toiled on that piece until it was right and you had mastered the technique. This is another excellent example. Indianajones, I don't understand where you are coming from with such a strong outburst. How is what was done with this sword different from removing rust and grime from an old piece, etching the blade, polishing the metal, and making it look like it would in its original culture? Would you consider those changes "ruining" an old piece also? Would you let a sleeping beauty slumber on indefinitely, or would you want to wake her up in all her former glory? Jose brings these back to life in a way which is respectful and in keeping with the tradition in which it was created.

9th September 2014, 04:24 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I UNDERSTAND BOTH POINTS OF VIEW AND LEAVE IT UP TO EACH COLLECTOR TO MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES. TO PUT A WIG AND MAKEUP ON A OLD BALD MAN TRYING TO RESTORE HIS FORMER YOUTH AND LOOKS IS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY. BUT A GOOD RESTORATION OF A WEAPON TO ITS EARLIER ORIGINAL CONDITION IS NOT THE SAME THING. IF DONE PROPERLY USING THE SAME TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS TO RESTORE IT TO ITS ORIGINAL FORM AND NOT ADDING ANY EMBELLISHMENTS (DESIGNS, TALESMEN, ECT.) I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. ON THE OTHER HAND IT MAKES THE ITEM LOOK NEW AND IS ALTERING ITS CURRENT CONDITION. THIS MAY INCREASE ITS WORTH TO SOME AND MAY RUIN IT FOR OTHERS DEPENDING ON THE POINT OF VIEW. THE DAMAGE AND WEAR TO THE OBJECT OVER THE YEARS MAY HINT AT ITS HISTORY. WAS THE SILVER, GOLD AND JEWELS STRIPPED DURING HARD TIMES BY THE OWNER? PERHAPS IT WAS TAKEN IN BATTLE BY A ENEMY AND STRIPPED OR MODIFIED TO FIT ANOTHER CULTURE. THE LOOK OF A LESS PERFECT OLD WAR HORSE SPURS THE IMAGINATION AND BRINGS TO MIND ALL THESE QUESTIONS. I JUDGE EACH ITEM INDIVIDUALLY ON ITS OWN MERIT AND AS MOST OF MY COLLECTION IS NOT OF THE HIGH QUALITY THERE IS NO SILVER , GOLD OR JEWELS TO RESTORE. WHILE WE ALL AGREE ON TAKING STEPS TO PRESERVE ITEMS THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CONFLICTING VIEWS ON RESTORATION. I AM PLEASED THAT JOSE IS WORKING TO LEARN AND FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONAL TECHNIQUES AND THAT PROJECTS ARE AVAILABLE FOR HIM TO WORK ON AND LEARN FROM. I THINK HE LIKELY JUDGES EACH ITEM BEFORE HE DECIDES TO RESTORE OR LEAVE IT AS IS AS WE ALL DO. IT IS GOOD TO HAVE A MEMBER WITH THE DESIRE AND SKILLS TO DO A PROPER JOB OF RESTORATION AND KEEP THE SKILLS ALIVE.

10th September 2014, 03:58 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another thought. The quality of the silver pommel casting is spectacular. What surprises me a bit is the simplicity of the silver inlay on the blade. The patterns are crude relative to the refinement of the pommel. Are we seeing a gap in technological skill/talent between casting and inlay craftsmen, or different sensibilities regarding what is important or what requires more detail (ie. the pommel is more visible than the blade, hence exhibits more refinement, the blade is used and hence needs rougher decoration). Could the inlay and pommel have been added at different times in the piece's life, by different owners, again with different concerns or ability to afford embellishment? Thanks, Emanuel

10th September 2014, 07:01 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I THINK THE SILVER DECORATION ON THE POMMEL, GRIP AND FERULE ARE JUST THAT, DECORATION TO SHOW STATUS AND WEALTH. THE INLAY ON THE BLADE IS PROBABLY TALISMANIC AND THERE PERHAPS TO CONTAIN AND HARNESS THE SPIRIT IN THE BLADE THUS MAKING IT A WEAPON IN THE SPIRIT WORLD AS WELL AS IN THIS ONE. I HAVE NOT HEARD ANY REFERENCE TO A VOLCANO BEING REPRESENTED IN THE LORE OF MORO KRIS. THERE ARE VOLCANOES IN THE AREA SO THERE ARE SURE TO BE OLD BELIEFS AND SUPERSTITIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM. IN OTHER MYTHOLOGY THE GOD VULCAN'S FORGE WAS OFTEN THOUGHT TO BE IN VOLCANOES. A INTERESTING THOUGHT.