Keris For Comment ?

Rick · 29th November 2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick.

How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks.

You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

My apologies John , I'm a little color blind in the red end of the spectrum and didn't notice the color change on the word .

I wonder if the bone has been treated some way for that is not its natural color when fresh . Also that piece is a superior example of the material .

Does it feel 'light' in your hand ?

I have only taken apart Sperm , Humpback , and Pilot whales .*
*(if the US Gov't is reading this ; it was in the 60's before the M.M.P.A. Guys , honest !)

Oh , and Nechesh I agree that this is a pretty non-traditional keris and the sales pitch is quite interesting .

I still come back to the question ; why don't we see 'elderly examples of this wrongko material ?

nechesh · 29th November 2005, 05:38 PM

I think we don't see older examples of this material either because it's use is fairly recent or it just doesn't hold up over time because of it's fragility. I think you will find this to be the case with fossilized elephant tooth as well. Almost all of the examples we see are contemporary. Even though it is hard it is very brittle and if there were a lot of older example (i don't really think there were) they didn't hold up.
As nice as that frog on th lily pads hilt is in this modern piece, i would be VERY wary about handling it at all. It is art for art sake with no functionality to it.

Battara · 30th November 2005, 01:06 AM

I have to agree with Nechesh. Whalebone is somewhat prized, but the fragility is what I would question. I have seen one kampilan done in whalebone. Amazing, but parts did not seem to hold up as well as others. Fossil elephant ivory is also a problem - talismanic, but very fragile and thus have only seen 3 Moro examples, one of which I own.

I have also been eyeing this keris and was wondering about it. Personally I love John's better, this is a nice one too.

John · 30th November 2005, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My apologies John , I'm a little color blind in the red end of the spectrum and didn't notice the color change on the word .

I wonder if the bone has been treated some way for that is not its natural color when fresh . Also that piece is a superior example of the material .

Does it feel 'light' in your hand ?

I have only taken apart Sperm , Humpback , and Pilot whales .*
*(if the US Gov't is reading this ; it was in the 60's before the M.M.P.A. Guys , honest !)

If you're refering to my piece Rick, I'm not able to tell if it has been treated as the patination seems natural enough but as the carvings are also quite deep, areas beyond the touch of hands are "whiter" than surface areas. There ain't any chips or cracks at all in spite of the deep detailed carvings but now learning this material is fragile, I'll be extra careful not to drop it or knock against anything etc that may cause damage. I also have a fossilised elephant molar wrangka and would opine with proper care and storage, these items would be as lasting. Also I thought elderly material like ivory would be quite brittle or breakable as well.

It does have a "light" feel and does not appear to be quite hard. I looked again at the "porous" aspect and would say it doesn't seem that porous but it's definitely bone.

Rick · 30th November 2005, 03:49 AM

Hi John ,
you have a very dense , nice example of bone that makes up your wrongko
whereas the example we are discussing is of much poorer quality .

I wonder does yours have any scent at all and which part of the skeleton it was from ?

I know that here we used to leave the pieces (vertebrae) outside on the roof of a shed or garage for a few years to 'sweeten' them as they were so oily .

Possibly the bone is boiled over there to get the oil out .

A gateway made from jawbones a couple of miles away from my house .

http://tinyurl.com/b6y7s

Andrew · 30th November 2005, 04:07 AM

A whaler? I had no idea! (Living on Cape Cod, too.

)

For what it's worth, the whale bone I've handled was suprisingly light and brittle-seeming. It was old and carved (crude "sailor" art dated to the early 18th century), with no memorable smell. A pure art piece.

John · 30th November 2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi John ,

...I wonder does yours have any scent at all and which part of the skeleton it was from ?

I know that here we used to leave the pieces (vertebrae) outside on the roof of a shed or garage for a few years to 'sweeten' them as they were so oily .

Possibly the bone is boiled over there to get the oil out .

A gateway made from jawbones a couple of miles away from my house .

http://tinyurl.com/b6y7s

The keris was scent oiled (included the wrangka) when purchased which I'm afraid had overcomed whatever natural odour the bone may have had. How would you describe the raw smell? See if I could pick any faint odour up. No idea on which part of the skeleton it came from and also no idea where those Balinese craftsmen sourced their material from. But I think it's fair to say unless proven or affirmatively confirmed it remains as "probable whalebone" as far as my piece is concern.

I've not seen raw whalebone in person and the jawbones in your picture do look rather white on the surface.

Rick · 30th November 2005, 04:55 PM

Hi John , those jawbones are well over 100 years old ; they are white because they are now painted ; if they had been left to weather after so many years they most likely would be a slate gray with mildew specks in the pores .

Initially whalebone is white ; if it is left to weather will stay white until it gets mossy ... anyway ; a picture is worth a thousand words .

John · 1st December 2005, 12:24 AM

That's quite a chunk of bone and looks large/thick enough for a few crosspieces if indeed those parts are suitable.

I've been trying to match your descriptions with whatever I could observe on my crosspiece and perhaps it's of a well selected denser part of bone which also goes rather well in weight, balance and feel with the rest of sheath and keris overall. However, the minimal porousness did make me wonder if the bone is whale's afterall but there again the crosspiece is quite a chunk with other characteristics quite matching although it doesn't look as fragile.

Thanks Rick for the first hand information.

BSMStar · 2nd December 2005, 01:43 AM

Rick,

Nice Whale vertebra. I found one in Baja 30 some years ago... It had been around for awhile. It was bleached white and very porous. I was a bit surprised to see how "solid" your specimen looked. I learn more every day! Thanks for the post!

30th November 2005, 03:49 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi John , you have a very dense , nice example of bone that makes up your wrongko whereas the example we are discussing is of much poorer quality . I wonder does yours have any scent at all and which part of the skeleton it was from ? I know that here we used to leave the pieces (vertebrae) outside on the roof of a shed or garage for a few years to 'sweeten' them as they were so oily . Possibly the bone is boiled over there to get the oil out . A gateway made from jawbones a couple of miles away from my house . http://tinyurl.com/b6y7s Last edited by Rick; 30th November 2005 at 04:03 AM.

30th November 2005, 04:55 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi John , those jawbones are well over 100 years old ; they are white because they are now painted ; if they had been left to weather after so many years they most likely would be a slate gray with mildew specks in the pores . Initially whalebone is white ; if it is left to weather will stay white until it gets mossy ... anyway ; a picture is worth a thousand words . Attached Images

29th November 2005, 05:38 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think we don't see older examples of this material either because it's use is fairly recent or it just doesn't hold up over time because of it's fragility. I think you will find this to be the case with fossilized elephant tooth as well. Almost all of the examples we see are contemporary. Even though it is hard it is very brittle and if there were a lot of older example (i don't really think there were) they didn't hold up. As nice as that frog on th lily pads hilt is in this modern piece, i would be VERY wary about handling it at all. It is art for art sake with no functionality to it.

30th November 2005, 01:06 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I have to agree with Nechesh. Whalebone is somewhat prized, but the fragility is what I would question. I have seen one kampilan done in whalebone. Amazing, but parts did not seem to hold up as well as others. Fossil elephant ivory is also a problem - talismanic, but very fragile and thus have only seen 3 Moro examples, one of which I own. I have also been eyeing this keris and was wondering about it. Personally I love John's better, this is a nice one too.

30th November 2005, 04:07 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	A whaler? I had no idea! (Living on Cape Cod, too. ) For what it's worth, the whale bone I've handled was suprisingly light and brittle-seeming. It was old and carved (crude "sailor" art dated to the early 18th century), with no memorable smell. A pure art piece.

1st December 2005, 12:24 AM	#9
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	That's quite a chunk of bone and looks large/thick enough for a few crosspieces if indeed those parts are suitable. I've been trying to match your descriptions with whatever I could observe on my crosspiece and perhaps it's of a well selected denser part of bone which also goes rather well in weight, balance and feel with the rest of sheath and keris overall. However, the minimal porousness did make me wonder if the bone is whale's afterall but there again the crosspiece is quite a chunk with other characteristics quite matching although it doesn't look as fragile. Thanks Rick for the first hand information.

2nd December 2005, 01:43 AM	#10
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Rick, Nice Whale vertebra. I found one in Baja 30 some years ago... It had been around for awhile. It was bleached white and very porous. I was a bit surprised to see how "solid" your specimen looked. I learn more every day! Thanks for the post!