Keris For Comment ?

John · 29th November 2005, 04:38 AM

I've handled 3 similar wrangkas including this one in my possession. The carving depicts scenes from the Ramayana said to be pertaining to the abduction of Sita, consort of Rama. There is also the guardian Boma at the middle. The wrangka carving is a little coarse and material looks to be similar to mine which is whalebone. Such wrangkas appeared recently and not seen pre WW II or later but I thought they are nice.

I don't believe having seen a similar hulu (handle) anywhere and the blade looks to be well made and of good quality.

Rick · 29th November 2005, 03:04 PM

John , are Whale strandings common in your part of the world ?
This seems to be a very unusual and really not such a great ( IMO ) material to use for a wrongko .
Most Whale bone is ridiculously porous .

There may be a symbolism attached to its use but I guess it would be a symbolism recently acquired. Which brings me to another question ; but that's for another thread .

John · 29th November 2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

John , are Whale strandings common in your part of the world ?
This seems to be a very unusual and really not such a great ( IMO ) material to use for a wrongko .
Most Whale bone is ridiculously porous .

Well Rick, if you're suggesting it's not whalebone, probably you could enlighten what you know to be or have been told to be. I'd be interested and conclusive corrections would be very welcomed. My comments were based on description and I acknowledge there's a possiblilty of error.

The wrangka I have is fairly porous although I wouldn't describe it as "ridiculously porous". But why do you opine WB as "very unusual and not a great material to use"?

Rick · 29th November 2005, 04:14 PM

No John , I'm not doubting that it's whalebone at all .
I'm sorry if I gave offense .

I've taken a few whales apart for the bones myself with a chainsaw many years ago
(ugh and Gag!!)

I'm familiar with its properties and IMO in a non fossilised or hardened state it wouldn't be a great material to do detailed carving with (too susceptible to chipping and crumbling) . The fact that so much detail was achieved I find impressive .
Is your wrongko carved in relief like this one ?
Got pictures ?

John · 29th November 2005, 04:54 PM

Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick.

How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks.

You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

Rick · 29th November 2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick.

How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks.

You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

My apologies John , I'm a little color blind in the red end of the spectrum and didn't notice the color change on the word .

I wonder if the bone has been treated some way for that is not its natural color when fresh . Also that piece is a superior example of the material .

Does it feel 'light' in your hand ?

I have only taken apart Sperm , Humpback , and Pilot whales .*
*(if the US Gov't is reading this ; it was in the 60's before the M.M.P.A. Guys , honest !)

Oh , and Nechesh I agree that this is a pretty non-traditional keris and the sales pitch is quite interesting .

I still come back to the question ; why don't we see 'elderly examples of this wrongko material ?

nechesh · 29th November 2005, 05:38 PM

I think we don't see older examples of this material either because it's use is fairly recent or it just doesn't hold up over time because of it's fragility. I think you will find this to be the case with fossilized elephant tooth as well. Almost all of the examples we see are contemporary. Even though it is hard it is very brittle and if there were a lot of older example (i don't really think there were) they didn't hold up.
As nice as that frog on th lily pads hilt is in this modern piece, i would be VERY wary about handling it at all. It is art for art sake with no functionality to it.

John · 30th November 2005, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

My apologies John , I'm a little color blind in the red end of the spectrum and didn't notice the color change on the word .

I wonder if the bone has been treated some way for that is not its natural color when fresh . Also that piece is a superior example of the material .

Does it feel 'light' in your hand ?

I have only taken apart Sperm , Humpback , and Pilot whales .*
*(if the US Gov't is reading this ; it was in the 60's before the M.M.P.A. Guys , honest !)

If you're refering to my piece Rick, I'm not able to tell if it has been treated as the patination seems natural enough but as the carvings are also quite deep, areas beyond the touch of hands are "whiter" than surface areas. There ain't any chips or cracks at all in spite of the deep detailed carvings but now learning this material is fragile, I'll be extra careful not to drop it or knock against anything etc that may cause damage. I also have a fossilised elephant molar wrangka and would opine with proper care and storage, these items would be as lasting. Also I thought elderly material like ivory would be quite brittle or breakable as well.

It does have a "light" feel and does not appear to be quite hard. I looked again at the "porous" aspect and would say it doesn't seem that porous but it's definitely bone.

nechesh · 29th November 2005, 05:03 PM

I've watched this sellers keris auctions for some time now. I have yet to be impressed by his items or his stories.
IMHO this is a fairly new ensemble all around, manufactured to sell to well off western clientle. The blade isn't terrible, the pamor work looks fairly descent, but i am not the least bit impressed with the carving of the ganesha, which looks rough and not very well defined. As for his stories about it's origins and the notches placed there by the "warrior priest" for each battle he fought in.....well, decide for yourself.

I have seen these sheaths before and have seen nicer (John's is a good example). I whale is a great beasty and i would think that some of it's bone, though porous, would be fairly substantial for carving. The pendok looks a little shady here in that, in the photos at least, the materials don't look like real gold or silver and the reprousse looks cheap to my eyes.
The hilt is the only part of this ensemble i find truly interesting. It looks to be a beautiful and unique bit of carving.

29th November 2005, 04:38 AM	#1
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	I've handled 3 similar wrangkas including this one in my possession. The carving depicts scenes from the Ramayana said to be pertaining to the abduction of Sita, consort of Rama. There is also the guardian Boma at the middle. The wrangka carving is a little coarse and material looks to be similar to mine which is whalebone. Such wrangkas appeared recently and not seen pre WW II or later but I thought they are nice. I don't believe having seen a similar hulu (handle) anywhere and the blade looks to be well made and of good quality.

29th November 2005, 03:04 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	John , are Whale strandings common in your part of the world ? This seems to be a very unusual and really not such a great ( IMO ) material to use for a wrongko . Most Whale bone is ridiculously porous . There may be a symbolism attached to its use but I guess it would be a symbolism recently acquired. Which brings me to another question ; but that's for another thread .

29th November 2005, 04:14 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	No John , I'm not doubting that it's whalebone at all . I'm sorry if I gave offense . I've taken a few whales apart for the bones myself with a chainsaw many years ago (ugh and Gag!!) I'm familiar with its properties and IMO in a non fossilised or hardened state it wouldn't be a great material to do detailed carving with (too susceptible to chipping and crumbling) . The fact that so much detail was achieved I find impressive . Is your wrongko carved in relief like this one ? Got pictures ?

29th November 2005, 04:54 PM	#5
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Sorry to have given a wrong "signal" Rick. How could I take offence from someone I've a lot of respect for. I certainly did anticipate you knew what you were talking about earlier which now is obvious for one who has hands on experience taking apart whales and bones. Your points are well noted. Thanks. You could look at pics of my piece by clicking on the word "one" of my preceding post or from this earlier thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002016.html

29th November 2005, 05:38 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think we don't see older examples of this material either because it's use is fairly recent or it just doesn't hold up over time because of it's fragility. I think you will find this to be the case with fossilized elephant tooth as well. Almost all of the examples we see are contemporary. Even though it is hard it is very brittle and if there were a lot of older example (i don't really think there were) they didn't hold up. As nice as that frog on th lily pads hilt is in this modern piece, i would be VERY wary about handling it at all. It is art for art sake with no functionality to it.

29th November 2005, 05:03 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I've watched this sellers keris auctions for some time now. I have yet to be impressed by his items or his stories. IMHO this is a fairly new ensemble all around, manufactured to sell to well off western clientle. The blade isn't terrible, the pamor work looks fairly descent, but i am not the least bit impressed with the carving of the ganesha, which looks rough and not very well defined. As for his stories about it's origins and the notches placed there by the "warrior priest" for each battle he fought in.....well, decide for yourself. I have seen these sheaths before and have seen nicer (John's is a good example). I whale is a great beasty and i would think that some of it's bone, though porous, would be fairly substantial for carving. The pendok looks a little shady here in that, in the photos at least, the materials don't look like real gold or silver and the reprousse looks cheap to my eyes. The hilt is the only part of this ensemble i find truly interesting. It looks to be a beautiful and unique bit of carving.