Mongol Dogpa knife?

Sajen · 1st September 2014, 06:43 PM

I have seen several with this bow shaped scabbards, special by ebay. I think that your second one is indeed from Mongolia, the handle seems to be typical for the Mongolian version. Like you I have noticed that there are tubular scabbards and more rectangular scabbards, some of these are set with stones. But I know not enough about this knives to say from where the different forms coming.

Regards,
Detlef

blue lander · 1st September 2014, 08:57 PM

Hmm, maybe its a newer style. I'll keep an eye on eBay for similar ones.

That other one came from a seller in Ulan baatar so I'm pretty confident its Mongolian. Obviously a work knife rather than a fancy outfit holiday knife. Still trying to track one of those down.

spiral · 1st September 2014, 09:03 PM

Love the second one B.L., you can see its old style steel & truly an ethnographic piece!

The first one is modern fake Tibetan in style, the curved blade is usual, saw loads like it in Nepal in 2005, all I saw were either modern Nepali fakes or mostly modern Chinese made imports....{Also fake...} Original Tibetan pieces obviously exist but there a lot more fake than real out there, & that isn't one of them.

Get more stuff like the second one!

spiiral

Sajen · 1st September 2014, 09:53 PM

Some threads of interest in this manner!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ongolian+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ongolian+knife

blue lander · 1st September 2014, 10:35 PM

Oh well, stinks that its a fake. The blade looks fairly scratched up though, o don't know if that's from usage or just poor finishing.

I've been trying to get more Mongolian knives from my inlaws who live over there but cultural differences have gotten the way. I asked for an antique knife, but to them it'd be insulting to give a relative somebody's old knife. So I said fine, get me a new one. But new ones are very expensive because they're adorned with silver. So I said fine, get me a plain one without any silver. But they wouldn't do that either because "even a poor person's knife has some silver on it."

My final attempt is for them to buy a cheap unadorned knife and then bring it to jeweler who can add some silver decorations. This is apparently cheaper than buying a premade one.

David · 2nd September 2014, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

The first one is modern fake Tibetan in style, the curved blade is usual, saw loads like it in Nepal in 2005, all I saw were either modern Nepali fakes or mostly modern Chinese made imports….{Also fake...} Original Tibetan pieces obviously exist but there a lot more fake than real out there, & that isn't one of them.

Spiral, this first one is obviously a modern example, but what makes them "fake" in your estimation? It doesn't seem to me that it is pretending to be an antique example. If it is it is doing a very poor job of it.

blue lander · 2nd September 2014, 03:52 PM

I think it'll be apparent whether or not it's a fake when I hold it in my hands. If it's a sturdy knife that looks like it wasn't 100% made in a factory in China I'll consider it a keeper.

While we're on the subject of Central Asian knives of this family, I've attached a picture of what are supposedly a Buryat knife and a Yakut knife. Both are from e-bay auctions several months ago that I didn't bid on because I was concerned they were just tourist pieces. The white and silver one is Buryat, the other Yakut.

Aleksey · 3rd September 2014, 08:34 AM

The initial knife is pure Tibetan knife but presumably of XX century.

The ironwork on scabbard is classic for Tibet.

Such knives used as household utensilf (e.g. to slice meat etc.) by Tibetans during the previous century. So even if it dates of 1950-1960th it is not fake.

BTW "dogpa" is not Mongolian word - it is Tibetan by the pronunsiation but spelling seems to be utterly simplified and I can not find the Tibetan original word.

Some Mongolians dwell in Tibet since 1630th - they are named "sog-po" (simplified spelling for convenience) by Tibetans.

blue lander · 4th September 2014, 04:00 PM

My guess is that the "dogpa" the seller was referring to are the Drokpa people, who are apparently Tibetan nomads.

http://www.iwgia.org/iwgia_files_pub...3-09_tibet.pdf

2nd September 2014, 03:52 PM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I think it'll be apparent whether or not it's a fake when I hold it in my hands. If it's a sturdy knife that looks like it wasn't 100% made in a factory in China I'll consider it a keeper. While we're on the subject of Central Asian knives of this family, I've attached a picture of what are supposedly a Buryat knife and a Yakut knife. Both are from e-bay auctions several months ago that I didn't bid on because I was concerned they were just tourist pieces. The white and silver one is Buryat, the other Yakut. Attached Images

1st September 2014, 06:43 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	I have seen several with this bow shaped scabbards, special by ebay. I think that your second one is indeed from Mongolia, the handle seems to be typical for the Mongolian version. Like you I have noticed that there are tubular scabbards and more rectangular scabbards, some of these are set with stones. But I know not enough about this knives to say from where the different forms coming. Regards, Detlef

1st September 2014, 08:57 PM	#2
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Hmm, maybe its a newer style. I'll keep an eye on eBay for similar ones. That other one came from a seller in Ulan baatar so I'm pretty confident its Mongolian. Obviously a work knife rather than a fancy outfit holiday knife. Still trying to track one of those down.

1st September 2014, 09:03 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Love the second one B.L., you can see its old style steel & truly an ethnographic piece! The first one is modern fake Tibetan in style, the curved blade is usual, saw loads like it in Nepal in 2005, all I saw were either modern Nepali fakes or mostly modern Chinese made imports....{Also fake...} Original Tibetan pieces obviously exist but there a lot more fake than real out there, & that isn't one of them. Get more stuff like the second one! spiiral

1st September 2014, 09:53 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Some threads of interest in this manner! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ongolian+knife http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ongolian+knife

1st September 2014, 10:35 PM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Oh well, stinks that its a fake. The blade looks fairly scratched up though, o don't know if that's from usage or just poor finishing. I've been trying to get more Mongolian knives from my inlaws who live over there but cultural differences have gotten the way. I asked for an antique knife, but to them it'd be insulting to give a relative somebody's old knife. So I said fine, get me a new one. But new ones are very expensive because they're adorned with silver. So I said fine, get me a plain one without any silver. But they wouldn't do that either because "even a poor person's knife has some silver on it." My final attempt is for them to buy a cheap unadorned knife and then bring it to jeweler who can add some silver decorations. This is apparently cheaper than buying a premade one.

3rd September 2014, 08:34 AM	#8
Aleksey Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	The initial knife is pure Tibetan knife but presumably of XX century. The ironwork on scabbard is classic for Tibet. Such knives used as household utensilf (e.g. to slice meat etc.) by Tibetans during the previous century. So even if it dates of 1950-1960th it is not fake. BTW "dogpa" is not Mongolian word - it is Tibetan by the pronunsiation but spelling seems to be utterly simplified and I can not find the Tibetan original word. Some Mongolians dwell in Tibet since 1630th - they are named "sog-po" (simplified spelling for convenience) by Tibetans.

4th September 2014, 04:00 PM	#9
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	My guess is that the "dogpa" the seller was referring to are the Drokpa people, who are apparently Tibetan nomads. http://www.iwgia.org/iwgia_files_pub...3-09_tibet.pdf