My Katar Collection

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok I will reply on these mails as best I can.

Andrew, the reason while I have not sent them yet is, that the carton box I have is far too small and not strong enough - sorry. And all the boxes I have been looking at, seem to be even smaller :-).

I will not recommen any books, as some of them are quite expensive, and this could discurage some form buying books at all, but there are a few authors, which I think you should try to look up on the net. Robert Elgood, Thomas H. Hendley, Rajendralala Mitra, Bashir Mohamed, Susan Stronge, Stuard Cary Welsh and Mark Zebrowski. Enjoy the search. Btw the Marlborough House and the Sandringham books have not so long ago been reprinted by Ken Trotman, so you dont have to buy the editions from end of 1800. Sorry Andrew as I think you would have prefered this to be mentioned on another thread.

Not all of the katars have the peacocks, but a lot of them have. On both of the katars in the picture you can see four peacocks, two on the blade and two at the lower part of the hand guard. I know they are often 'hidden', so it is not always easy to see them, if you dont know they are. The peacocks always have their heads towards each other, and their tails meet in the middle of the blade, to form the Kundalini Flame/The Tree of life/a cypress (for more information of the first two read some Yoga books).

Collecting Indian weapons is a world of its own. All the different forms, changing a bit from place to place, the different fashions of decoration, and the forms long gone.

I havge written an article about the age of the katar, and took it back to the Orissa in the 10th century - so it is a very old weapon type, and when you look at the age it has not changed much.

Jens



For the peacocks and the four cusped arch design see Elgood 2004.

[JamesKelly]

Jens -
Thanks for the suggested authors. I have a couple of them (including your article in Arms & Armour V10 #1) & will slowly order more.

In both fire- and cold arms, published works have useful information but often severely limited illustrations.
My immediate question is how do I recognize a peacock that has been (to my eye) stylized out of all resemblance to anything avian. There is, so far as I know, no book entitled Peacocks on Indian Weapons. For that matter I've found no works specifically on katars, or on shields. Therefore, I have begun assembling my own computer "books" for these fields. For some time I've found this approach helpful in certain narrow firearms interests.
This site is a wonderful source. And the better dealers have numerous & often superb photos.

[Jens Nordlunde]

James,
Gold, Silver and Bronze from Mughal India by Zebrowski. You will not find any weapons in the book, but what you will find is very early items of peacocks and a lot of different kinds of decoration, also usen on weapons - and they are dated.
The Adventurers of Hamza and other early books showing miniatures could be a big help as well.
I do agree with you, that many things shown on weapons are hidden so you cant see them unless you know where they are, and what they represent.
Now it is up to you, how big your interest in Indian weapons is, if you will go on researching as I have for decades, or if you will give up now.
I wish you all the best, as I think I will stop writing on the forum, so others can take over.
Jens

[Runjeet Singh]

Dear All,

I have followed the thread with interest, as it is a topic of interest for me, on many levels!

Unfortunate to see the misunderstanding but I hope there wont be any animosity. I agree with Andrew, that casual emails/written word can sometimes by misconstrued, especially with cultural differences.

Sad to hear you may be leaving Jens, I do have a couple of questions that will (I hope) at least lure you back to this discussion. In fact a correction, there IS a weapon in the Zebrowski book, or at least, a bronze 'Yali' South Indian dagger hilt. I'm sure you have seen it Jens, and my comment is me being slightly pedantic.

I do have a couple of serious questions for you - I would like to hear your opinion on the gold decoration on your pictured Katars. If you agree with me, that it is applied later, and North Indian in style. Done very nicely - in the 19thC by Rajput/Punjabi artisans?

I have had some fantastic Tanjore katars pass through my hands, most have been plain steel, applied silver, or silver gilt.

Is your Katar article available for public or private reading?

Regards
Runjeet

[Runjeet Singh]

My last email was published without me seeing Eric's last message..........I guess my question re the gold work still stands, some of the other questions/comments no longer apply or have been answered

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Dear All,

I have followed the thread with interest, as it is a topic of interest for me, on many levels!

Unfortunate to see the misunderstanding but I hope there wont be any animosity. I agree with Andrew, that casual emails/written word can sometimes by misconstrued, especially with cultural differences.

Sad to hear you may be leaving Jens, I do have a couple of questions that will (I hope) at least lure you back to this discussion. In fact a correction, there IS a weapon in the Zebrowski book, or at least, a bronze 'Yali' South Indian dagger hilt. I'm sure you have seen it Jens, and my comment is me being slightly pedantic.

I do have a couple of serious questions for you - I would like to hear your opinion on the gold decoration on your pictured Katars. If you agree with me, that it is applied later, and North Indian in style. Done very nicely - in the 19thC by Rajput/Punjabi artisans?

I have had some fantastic Tanjore katars pass through my hands, most have been plain steel, applied silver, or silver gilt.

Is your Katar article available for public or private reading?

Regards
Runjeet

Hi Rujeet ,
Here are some pictures with original 17th century gold work!
Kurt

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hi Rujeet ,
Here are some pictures with original 17th century gold work!
Kurt

Kurt, I see what looks like elephants with some other type of animal above the elephants, is that a gryphon or some other animal.

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Kurt, I see what looks like elephants with some other type of animal above the elephants, is that a gryphon or some other animal.

Sorry I do not know, am not familiar in the Indian mythology.
Maybe someone can help.

[Runjeet Singh]

Hi Kurt/Eric,

Lovely katar, and thanks for sharing!

The gold koftgari on your Katar certainly has some age to it, and bears the hall marks of 17th or 18th work.

My theory would be that the katar is made in Tanjore/Srirangam, as is now popular belief, probably in the 16th or 17th Century, by local craftsmen. I believe the gold is the work of a Northern (Rajput/Punjabi) koftgari artist, probably in the 17th or 18th Century. The alternative is that a South Indian craftsman has been trained by Northern artisans.

The wonderful thing is the koftgari artist has incorporated pure South Indian design, in the form of the upstanding Yali's (Leogryphs) within the gold-work on the sidebars, as Eric has shown.

Another interesting comparison I would like to show you is of some silver koftagri from an 18th Century South Indian pata blade. The
small flowers within the twisting vine or stem, has a close resemblance.

Regards,
Runjeet

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Hi Kurt/Eric,

Lovely katar, and thanks for sharing!

The gold koftgari on your Katar certainly has some age to it, and bears the hall marks of 17th or 18th work.

My theory would be that the katar is made in Tanjore/Srirangam, as is now popular belief, probably in the 16th or 17th Century, by local craftsmen. I believe the gold is the work of a Northern (Rajput/Punjabi) koftgari artist, probably in the 17th or 18th Century. The alternative is that a South Indian craftsman has been trained by Northern artisans.

The wonderful thing is the koftgari artist has incorporated pure South Indian design, in the form of the upstanding Yali's (Leogryphs) within the gold-work on the sidebars, as Eric has shown.

Another interesting comparison I would like to show you is of some silver koftagri from an 18th Century South Indian pata blade. The
small flowers within the twisting vine or stem, has a close resemblance.

Regards,
Runjeet

Runjeet, correct me if I am wrong but this katar seems to incorporate some of the same Southern features, Yali and small flowers along with very obvious peacocks and a couple of fish as well..

[Jim McDougall]

Again, to return to James' katar from the original post, it is an austere but extremely attractive example of what I would consider a Vijayanagara katar, as Robert Elgood shows on p.145 ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) fig.15.1 (#22). His example looks remarkably like the 'classic' 16th century style (as described by Elgood).

While Vijayanagara is actually situated in the Deccan (geographically central India) it is included categorically among Tanjore in the classification of 'southern' type katars (usually those with 'hoods' or covered handguards).

This is probably one of the most perplexing issues in the study of Indian (in fact often ethnographic in general) arms, which is that for purposes of classification, broad terms such as southern or northern are typically less than useful.
As seen here, deeper look into characteristics, motif and blade features are best noted and used to qualify the weapon's classification.

We know that the triangular blade and striated ribs are characteristic of Vijayanagara edged weapons of 16th c., as is the 'hooded' guard on the katar. By the 17th century, cut down European sword blades began to come into India and began to be used regularly on katars.

It is noted that austerity in style was adopted by the Hindu Royal Court at Hampi (near Vijayangara) in the mid 16th century, in accord with that of Muslim architecture. This apparently was applied in hilt decoration as well,and on these hooded katars.

It does seem possible that this katar may indeed be of these Vijayangara regions in this period, and turning to the tree of life which is of Hindu association, as well as the shellguard referred to as 'turtle shell'.
The turtle is Kurma, 2nd incarnation of Vishnu (Elgood,15.21).

Turning to our peacocks, their presence is probably a reference to Karttikeya, god of war and son of Siva. Siva, under the name Virupaksha is the family deity of the Vijayanagara rayas.

It seems possible that along with the austerity of decoration and the demeanor of this katar, the ultra stylization of the peacocks may fall into place with the adoption of Muslim style in these regions in the 16th .

This would be an assessment of this katar strictly from these photos, and of course there is always a chance it may indeed be a later product following these earlier traditions. However, simply looking at these features, these are the likely indicators of what the weapon appears to be.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Again, to return to James' katar from the original post, it is an austere but extremely attractive example of what I would consider a Vijayanagara katar, as Robert Elgood shows on p.145 ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) fig.15.1 (#22). His example looks remarkably like the 'classic' 16th century style (as described by Elgood).

While Vijayanagara is actually situated in the Deccan (geographically central India) it is included categorically among Tanjore in the classification of 'southern' type katars (usually those with 'hoods' or covered handguards).

This is probably one of the most perplexing issues in the study of Indian (in fact often ethnographic in general) arms, which is that for purposes of classification, broad terms such as southern or northern are typically less than useful.
As seen here, deeper look into characteristics, motif and blade features are best noted and used to qualify the weapon's classification.

We know that the triangular blade and striated ribs are characteristic of Vijayanagara edged weapons of 16th c., as is the 'hooded' guard on the katar. By the 17th century, cut down European sword blades began to come into India and began to be used regularly on katars.

It is noted that austerity in style was adopted by the Hindu Royal Court at Hampi (near Vijayangara) in the mid 16th century, in accord with that of Muslim architecture. This apparently was applied in hilt decoration as well,and on these hooded katars.

It does seem possible that this katar may indeed be of these Vijayangara regions in this period, and turning to the tree of life which is of Hindu association, as well as the shellguard referred to as 'turtle shell'.
The turtle is Kurma, 2nd incarnation of Vishnu (Elgood,15.21).

Turning to our peacocks, their presence is probably a reference to Karttikeya, god of war and son of Siva. Siva, under the name Virupaksha is the family deity of the Vijayanagara rayas.

It seems possible that along with the austerity of decoration and the demeanor of this katar, the ultra stylization of the peacocks may fall into place with the adoption of Muslim style in these regions in the 16th .

This would be an assessment of this katar strictly from these photos, and of course there is always a chance it may indeed be a later product following these earlier traditions. However, simply looking at these features, these are the likely indicators of what the weapon appears to be.

Salaams Jim, et al.
Thank you for keeping the thread in focus.
The study of this dagger form (and I am never sure what their actual accurate name is...) is indeed fascinating and has caused me to dive for my few Indian books on Arms 'n armour... The design pattern including Yali and the Peacock feather design are used all over the Indian sphere of ethnographic arms...and spill over from their dominant abode in Southern India to Sri Lanka commonly seen on the Kastane and other weapons. This is an excellent sidearm or secondary armament that I thought were called Lion Knives...or punch daggers though the term Kattar is well understood to reflect this description. It is commonly understood that these are formed from broken swords...though there must be many that were made as new, no?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

warning: barely related thread veer:

peacocks are ANNOYING, irritating birds!

their scream is one of the loudest things a bird can produce, on a par with a howler monkey. a famiy near me in glucestersire had two. they wander where they feel like, and make a rooster sound positively mute and innocuous. they also can be agressive and reguarly chase people, especially children.

peahens, however are not so misbehaved. recent studies have also shown that peahens, sensibly, do NOT choose a mate based on his tail display.

peacocks are edible tho

we now return you to the regularly scheduled thread.