Plains stone axe for ?ing

Tim Simmons · 9th August 2014, 04:37 PM

I really do not know what to make of it. I certainly do not think it a tourist item. It was not expensive but also not a that cheap. There is the saying " if looks too good to be true then it probably isn't " There is the chance that it could equally be genuine as it could a fake/reproduction. A very difficult area to dabble in. Many of my Oceanic pieces have been bought at prices too good to be true but they are spot on. My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched.

It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

Ian · 9th August 2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched.

It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

My sentiments too, Tim. I like to find odd things that others have overlooked, ones that are not necessarily "pretty" but interesting and that need some digging around to learn more. Taking a risk every now and again is exciting. I still have my "drawer of shame" where the mistakes lie!

Perhaps we all have some of these sentiments, but only a few talk about them.

Ian.

VANDOO · 9th August 2014, 08:08 PM

I BUY THE OCCASIONAL WELL MADE NATIVE AMERICAN ITEM IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. I ALWAYS ASSUME ANY STONE POINT, AX, CLUB OR SHIELD TO BE A REPLICA UNLESS I FIND IT MYSELF OR KNOW THE PERSON WITH PROVENANCE VERY WELL AND TRUST THEM A LOT. I USE THEM AS DECORATIVE ITEMS AND THEY DO MAKE A VERY NICE DISPLAY BUT I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO SPEND THE KIND OF MONEY EVEN THE GOOD REPLICAS BRING NEVER MIND THE ONES SOLD AS AUTHENTIC. IF I LIKE IT AND HAVE A PLACE FOR IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I WILL BUY IT.
HERE IS A PICTURE OF A POINT MADE OF TEXAS ALABATES FLINT ITS NOT MINE BUT I HAD TWO POINTS LIKE IT KNAPPED FOR ME THAT LOOK JUST AS GOOD IT TOOK THE KNAPPER LESS THAN 30 MINUTES TO DO BOTH POINTS. THERE ARE MANY GOOD FLINT KNAPPERS AROUND WHO COULD DO AS GOOD OR BETTER SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FAKES /REPLICAS OUT THERE. THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF AUTHENTIC POINTS, BLADES, KNIVES AND SCRAPERS OUT THERE THAT CAN BE MOUNTED IN AXES OR AS KNIVES OR SPEARS. SEVERAL PEOPLE I HAVE KNOW REGULARLY BUY AN OLD INEXPENSIVE GUN AND WITH A BIT OF LEATHER AND A FEW BRASS TACKS AND STUFF MAKE A GUANINE INDIAN GUN TO SELL. I DON'T COLLECT IN THE FIELD BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS AND THERE IS A LOT MORE BOGUS THINGS OUT THERE THAN THE REAL ITEMS. I HAVE BEEN AROUND SUCH STUFF MOST OF MY LIFE AND CAN RECOGNIZE MANY REPLICAS BUT SOME CAN EVEN FOOL THE EXPERTS. SO IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT FIELD TO BEGIN COLLECTING IN A GOOD HONEST DEALER WOULD BE INVALUABLE TO GET STARTED.

Tim Simmons · 13th September 2014, 12:04 PM

Doing lots of searching and research on this piece. Not wanting to fill this post with a multitude of links. It is quite possible that this piece is a ceremonial tomahawk, "tomahawk" being rather a misnomer for the original stone axe version. Stone axes were used in dance, ceremony, and as gifts in diplomacy.

VANDOO · 13th September 2014, 07:49 PM

THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE TO THIS FORM OF PRODUCTION. THE TRIBES WERE TAKEN FROM THEIR LANDS AND PUT ON RESERVATIONS AND NO LONGER ALLOWED TO WANDER, HUNT OR MAKE WAR EVEN ON EACH OTHER. OLD TRIBAL TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WERE REPRESSED AND MANY LOST THEIR WAY OR BECAME VICTIMS OF WHISKY. EVEN GRANAMO MADE AND SOLD BOWS AND ARROWS AND LEARNED TO WRITE HIS NAME SO AS TO SELL AUTOGRAPHS TO PROVIDE MONEY FOR HIS NEEDS. THE TRIBES MADE MANY TRADITIONAL ITEMS DURING THIS TIME OF SUBSISTENCE LIVING AND SOLD THEM TO TRADERS OR IN SMALL STANDS ALONG THE MAIN ROADS. BASKETS, POTTERY, CLOTHES, BEAD WORK, BLANKETS AND SOME WEAPONS WERE MADE AND SOLD. SOME LEARNED TO SIGN THEIR NAMES TO POTTERY OR KACHINA DOLLS WHICH ARE NOW HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE. TODAY SOME NATIVE AMERICAN ARTISTS STILL MAKE GOOD TRADITIONAL ITEMS FOR SALE IN SHOPS OR IN ROADSIDE STANDS.
ITEMS WERE SOLD AT THE MANY WILD WEST SHOWS THAT WERE POPULAR AS WELL AND NOTABLE CHIEFS AND WARRIORS OFTEN APPEARED IN THEM. BUFFALO BILL, PAWNEE BILL AMONG OTHERS TOURED WITH THEIR SHOWS EVEN TO EUROPE. ITEMS ASSOCIATED WITH THESE SHOWS ARE SOUGHT AFTER BY COLLECTORS.
THERE ARE FAKES OR MODERN REPLICAS AS WELL AS ITEMS MADE BY NATIVE ARTISTS BEING MADE TODAY BUT MIXED IN AMONG THEM ARE THE OLD AUTHENTIC ITEMS FROM THE SHINING TIMES AND FROM THE SAD RESERVATION TIMES UP TO THE PRESENT. A INTERESTING BUT VERY DIFFICULT FIELD IN WHICH TO COLLECT.
THE AX IN QUESTION APPEARS TO BE WELL MADE AND WILL SERVE AS A GOOD REPRESENTATIVE ITEM OF THE TYPE WEATHER RECENT OR FROM THE DAYS OF THE WILD WEST SHOWS. SOMETIMES THEY STILL CARRY SUCH MODERN TRIBAL MADE REPLICA ITEMS TODAY AT THE TRIBAL POW WOWS HERE IN OKLAHOMA. SO THESE ITEMS MADE BY THE TRIBES AND STILL USED MIGHT BE CONSIDERED CURRENT ETHNOGRAPHIC ITEMS RATHER THAN REPLICAS.

ONCE AGAIN IT WOULD BE A MATTER OF PROVIDENCE AS THE DETERMINING FACTOR.

Tim Simmons · 16th September 2014, 01:07 PM

Here I present qualified printed reference to my suggestions. This exert is taken from.
" Collecting Indian Knives Identification and Value, Lar Holthem, Includes Paleo, Archaic, Woodland-Mississippian, Hafted knives, Caches, Ceremonial, Historic, Plus Much More. Books Americana 1986 "

The blade on this example of artwork relates to much of the perhistoric forms, on the plains, that is possibly not much more than 300 years ago or so.

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2014, 10:54 AM

Looking for similar pieces. I found this lovely double horn pointed example in the Brooklyn museum. Plus to me, rather suspect "antique" pieces with prices over $700 {knapped stone} and $500 for the plain example. That is several times more than I would be prepared to pay. Clearly they lack any artistic thought and aesthetic design.

9th August 2014, 08:08 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I BUY THE OCCASIONAL WELL MADE NATIVE AMERICAN ITEM IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. I ALWAYS ASSUME ANY STONE POINT, AX, CLUB OR SHIELD TO BE A REPLICA UNLESS I FIND IT MYSELF OR KNOW THE PERSON WITH PROVENANCE VERY WELL AND TRUST THEM A LOT. I USE THEM AS DECORATIVE ITEMS AND THEY DO MAKE A VERY NICE DISPLAY BUT I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO SPEND THE KIND OF MONEY EVEN THE GOOD REPLICAS BRING NEVER MIND THE ONES SOLD AS AUTHENTIC. IF I LIKE IT AND HAVE A PLACE FOR IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I WILL BUY IT. HERE IS A PICTURE OF A POINT MADE OF TEXAS ALABATES FLINT ITS NOT MINE BUT I HAD TWO POINTS LIKE IT KNAPPED FOR ME THAT LOOK JUST AS GOOD IT TOOK THE KNAPPER LESS THAN 30 MINUTES TO DO BOTH POINTS. THERE ARE MANY GOOD FLINT KNAPPERS AROUND WHO COULD DO AS GOOD OR BETTER SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FAKES /REPLICAS OUT THERE. THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF AUTHENTIC POINTS, BLADES, KNIVES AND SCRAPERS OUT THERE THAT CAN BE MOUNTED IN AXES OR AS KNIVES OR SPEARS. SEVERAL PEOPLE I HAVE KNOW REGULARLY BUY AN OLD INEXPENSIVE GUN AND WITH A BIT OF LEATHER AND A FEW BRASS TACKS AND STUFF MAKE A GUANINE INDIAN GUN TO SELL. I DON'T COLLECT IN THE FIELD BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS AND THERE IS A LOT MORE BOGUS THINGS OUT THERE THAN THE REAL ITEMS. I HAVE BEEN AROUND SUCH STUFF MOST OF MY LIFE AND CAN RECOGNIZE MANY REPLICAS BUT SOME CAN EVEN FOOL THE EXPERTS. SO IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT FIELD TO BEGIN COLLECTING IN A GOOD HONEST DEALER WOULD BE INVALUABLE TO GET STARTED. Attached Images

16th September 2014, 01:07 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Here I present qualified printed reference to my suggestions. This exert is taken from. " Collecting Indian Knives Identification and Value, Lar Holthem, Includes Paleo, Archaic, Woodland-Mississippian, Hafted knives, Caches, Ceremonial, Historic, Plus Much More. Books Americana 1986 " The blade on this example of artwork relates to much of the perhistoric forms, on the plains, that is possibly not much more than 300 years ago or so. Attached Images

19th September 2014, 10:54 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Looking for similar pieces. I found this lovely double horn pointed example in the Brooklyn museum. Plus to me, rather suspect "antique" pieces with prices over $700 {knapped stone} and $500 for the plain example. That is several times more than I would be prepared to pay. Clearly they lack any artistic thought and aesthetic design. Attached Images

9th August 2014, 04:37 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I really do not know what to make of it. I certainly do not think it a tourist item. It was not expensive but also not a that cheap. There is the saying " if looks too good to be true then it probably isn't " There is the chance that it could equally be genuine as it could a fake/reproduction. A very difficult area to dabble in. Many of my Oceanic pieces have been bought at prices too good to be true but they are spot on. My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched. It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

13th September 2014, 12:04 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Doing lots of searching and research on this piece. Not wanting to fill this post with a multitude of links. It is quite possible that this piece is a ceremonial tomahawk, "tomahawk" being rather a misnomer for the original stone axe version. Stone axes were used in dance, ceremony, and as gifts in diplomacy.

13th September 2014, 07:49 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE TO THIS FORM OF PRODUCTION. THE TRIBES WERE TAKEN FROM THEIR LANDS AND PUT ON RESERVATIONS AND NO LONGER ALLOWED TO WANDER, HUNT OR MAKE WAR EVEN ON EACH OTHER. OLD TRIBAL TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WERE REPRESSED AND MANY LOST THEIR WAY OR BECAME VICTIMS OF WHISKY. EVEN GRANAMO MADE AND SOLD BOWS AND ARROWS AND LEARNED TO WRITE HIS NAME SO AS TO SELL AUTOGRAPHS TO PROVIDE MONEY FOR HIS NEEDS. THE TRIBES MADE MANY TRADITIONAL ITEMS DURING THIS TIME OF SUBSISTENCE LIVING AND SOLD THEM TO TRADERS OR IN SMALL STANDS ALONG THE MAIN ROADS. BASKETS, POTTERY, CLOTHES, BEAD WORK, BLANKETS AND SOME WEAPONS WERE MADE AND SOLD. SOME LEARNED TO SIGN THEIR NAMES TO POTTERY OR KACHINA DOLLS WHICH ARE NOW HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE. TODAY SOME NATIVE AMERICAN ARTISTS STILL MAKE GOOD TRADITIONAL ITEMS FOR SALE IN SHOPS OR IN ROADSIDE STANDS. ITEMS WERE SOLD AT THE MANY WILD WEST SHOWS THAT WERE POPULAR AS WELL AND NOTABLE CHIEFS AND WARRIORS OFTEN APPEARED IN THEM. BUFFALO BILL, PAWNEE BILL AMONG OTHERS TOURED WITH THEIR SHOWS EVEN TO EUROPE. ITEMS ASSOCIATED WITH THESE SHOWS ARE SOUGHT AFTER BY COLLECTORS. THERE ARE FAKES OR MODERN REPLICAS AS WELL AS ITEMS MADE BY NATIVE ARTISTS BEING MADE TODAY BUT MIXED IN AMONG THEM ARE THE OLD AUTHENTIC ITEMS FROM THE SHINING TIMES AND FROM THE SAD RESERVATION TIMES UP TO THE PRESENT. A INTERESTING BUT VERY DIFFICULT FIELD IN WHICH TO COLLECT. THE AX IN QUESTION APPEARS TO BE WELL MADE AND WILL SERVE AS A GOOD REPRESENTATIVE ITEM OF THE TYPE WEATHER RECENT OR FROM THE DAYS OF THE WILD WEST SHOWS. SOMETIMES THEY STILL CARRY SUCH MODERN TRIBAL MADE REPLICA ITEMS TODAY AT THE TRIBAL POW WOWS HERE IN OKLAHOMA. SO THESE ITEMS MADE BY THE TRIBES AND STILL USED MIGHT BE CONSIDERED CURRENT ETHNOGRAPHIC ITEMS RATHER THAN REPLICAS. ONCE AGAIN IT WOULD BE A MATTER OF PROVIDENCE AS THE DETERMINING FACTOR.