Plains stone axe for ?ing

Shakethetrees · 8th August 2014, 06:58 PM

In my somewhat limited experience with American Indian weapons, one thing I see consistently is that the thread used to stitch the hide should be sinew, not cotton, until late in the game.

There should be some patina at the junction of brass tacks and leather.

The chemicals used in the tanning process, whether commercially tanned, or tanned on the Plains using brains of the animal, or untanned rawhide, all will interact with the brass over time, dirt from regular handling will be found in traces in the crevices and overall.

There should be a worn in appearance, like everything has been together for a long time, and not look like it has been left on a shelf or handled gingerly, with white cotton gloves as in a museum.

Remember, these were tools that could and would be replaced when worn out or broken, not artifacts nought of in the way we do today.

Tim Simmons · 8th August 2014, 09:52 PM

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts? I do not know. All I can say is that if you have ever tried to carve a nice polished pleasant to hold walking stick or hiking stick with some artistic expression, takes many hours.

Shakethetrees · 9th August 2014, 06:07 AM

Glad to contribute.

I have known a number of fakers over the years, either "improvers" to antique weaponry, (who just somehow can't leave a good piece alone. They sharpen edges that were not previously sharp, add semiprecious or precious stones, enhance or add names or inscriptions, etc.), creators, who make things from scratch, and, the most dangerous, those who buy marginal pieces that are honest and reverse engineer an interesting provenance to lock several things together that supposedly tell a story using period business cards invoices, photographs, or other things. They, in turn, will sell these conglomerations at gun shows for surprisingly big money. An example of this type are the "Vampire boxes". A nice, period box, a nice old crucifix, old bottles for holy water, an old bible or other holy book, a wooden stake or two, some garlic, an old (and not too valuable pistol of the"period" and maybe a few cast silver bullets thrown in for good measure.

I live in a city that through books and movies, somehow has been seen as a home for vampires in the 18th and 19th centuries. There have never, repeat, never been creations like vampire boxes here, or anywhere else.

The point of this diatribe is to state that sometime fakers can make good money from their deceptions, and see it as a challenge. They do not think of it terms of the cost of materials and billable hours, straight business, train of thought.

A late, and highly respected author of a guide to antique guns asked me at a show about a particular individual who was selling such trash for big money. Apparently things were starting to catch up to him. As we walked around, the person in question just happened to walk down another aisle a row or two away!

I pointed him out, both of us astonished that the timing could not have been more perfect. And he had one of his cohorts with him as well! It seems that a number of East Coast collectors who had been taken by this bum were starting to look for him.

Anyway, over breakfast the next day, the conversation continued, he asked if I possibly had a photo of him. No, why would I?

Well, in the city paper that morning they had a little coverage of this show, and in a picture, guess who was front and center?

Not long after that, this person was not to be seen at shows and was rumored to be selling used cars or siding somewhere a thousand miles away!

But, as that was seven or eight years ago, I have since heard rumors that he's back, the statute of limitations having run out.

The old axiom, "you can't kill bad grass" definitely applies here.

I again apologize for the length of this story, I hope that everyone out there in the collecting world will be on guard for this.

Tim Simmons · 9th August 2014, 04:37 PM

I really do not know what to make of it. I certainly do not think it a tourist item. It was not expensive but also not a that cheap. There is the saying " if looks too good to be true then it probably isn't " There is the chance that it could equally be genuine as it could a fake/reproduction. A very difficult area to dabble in. Many of my Oceanic pieces have been bought at prices too good to be true but they are spot on. My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched.

It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

Ian · 9th August 2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched.

It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

My sentiments too, Tim. I like to find odd things that others have overlooked, ones that are not necessarily "pretty" but interesting and that need some digging around to learn more. Taking a risk every now and again is exciting. I still have my "drawer of shame" where the mistakes lie!

Perhaps we all have some of these sentiments, but only a few talk about them.

Ian.

VANDOO · 9th August 2014, 08:08 PM

I BUY THE OCCASIONAL WELL MADE NATIVE AMERICAN ITEM IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. I ALWAYS ASSUME ANY STONE POINT, AX, CLUB OR SHIELD TO BE A REPLICA UNLESS I FIND IT MYSELF OR KNOW THE PERSON WITH PROVENANCE VERY WELL AND TRUST THEM A LOT. I USE THEM AS DECORATIVE ITEMS AND THEY DO MAKE A VERY NICE DISPLAY BUT I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO SPEND THE KIND OF MONEY EVEN THE GOOD REPLICAS BRING NEVER MIND THE ONES SOLD AS AUTHENTIC. IF I LIKE IT AND HAVE A PLACE FOR IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I WILL BUY IT.
HERE IS A PICTURE OF A POINT MADE OF TEXAS ALABATES FLINT ITS NOT MINE BUT I HAD TWO POINTS LIKE IT KNAPPED FOR ME THAT LOOK JUST AS GOOD IT TOOK THE KNAPPER LESS THAN 30 MINUTES TO DO BOTH POINTS. THERE ARE MANY GOOD FLINT KNAPPERS AROUND WHO COULD DO AS GOOD OR BETTER SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FAKES /REPLICAS OUT THERE. THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF AUTHENTIC POINTS, BLADES, KNIVES AND SCRAPERS OUT THERE THAT CAN BE MOUNTED IN AXES OR AS KNIVES OR SPEARS. SEVERAL PEOPLE I HAVE KNOW REGULARLY BUY AN OLD INEXPENSIVE GUN AND WITH A BIT OF LEATHER AND A FEW BRASS TACKS AND STUFF MAKE A GUANINE INDIAN GUN TO SELL. I DON'T COLLECT IN THE FIELD BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS AND THERE IS A LOT MORE BOGUS THINGS OUT THERE THAN THE REAL ITEMS. I HAVE BEEN AROUND SUCH STUFF MOST OF MY LIFE AND CAN RECOGNIZE MANY REPLICAS BUT SOME CAN EVEN FOOL THE EXPERTS. SO IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT FIELD TO BEGIN COLLECTING IN A GOOD HONEST DEALER WOULD BE INVALUABLE TO GET STARTED.

Tim Simmons · 13th September 2014, 12:04 PM

Doing lots of searching and research on this piece. Not wanting to fill this post with a multitude of links. It is quite possible that this piece is a ceremonial tomahawk, "tomahawk" being rather a misnomer for the original stone axe version. Stone axes were used in dance, ceremony, and as gifts in diplomacy.

David · 18th October 2015, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts?

It's an interesting item for sure Tim. One possibility doesn't really seem to be considered here. Sometimes hobbyists create pieces like this purely for their own enjoyment. A am currently working on my own battle axe right now. Forged the head from a railway spike. So it may not necessarily be a matter of how much effort a faker might be willing to put into such a piece for the effort. I have put many hours of work into my axe and shed a bit of blood over it besides. It's about the love and accomplishment of making the thing, not any money since it is not for sale. But years down the line when some one finds it in my estate sale...???

Of course my axe isn't being made to appear to be from any one culture so it probably won't fool anyone. But lots of folks make such things as close to original specs as they can just to show they can still do it.

Tim Simmons · 18th October 2015, 06:11 PM

Yes some people are obviously prepared to spend a lot of money on potentially hobby work.

Tim Simmons · 20th October 2015, 04:19 PM

Interesting objects, late 19th century.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%204558

Tim Simmons · 25th October 2015, 04:54 PM

I just cannot help myself now I have found more.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%209073

Tim Simmons · 31st December 2015, 04:33 PM

I just want to say that I have identified the stone. "Rhyolite" This pink Rhyolite {high grade} is high in silica which makes knapping possible. It is a volcanic stone. If you look carefully you can see holes where gas has escaped. These holes are known as "Vugs" I am sure you needed to know that.

scroll down
http://www.thudscave.com/petroglyphs/knappable.htm

9th August 2014, 08:08 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I BUY THE OCCASIONAL WELL MADE NATIVE AMERICAN ITEM IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. I ALWAYS ASSUME ANY STONE POINT, AX, CLUB OR SHIELD TO BE A REPLICA UNLESS I FIND IT MYSELF OR KNOW THE PERSON WITH PROVENANCE VERY WELL AND TRUST THEM A LOT. I USE THEM AS DECORATIVE ITEMS AND THEY DO MAKE A VERY NICE DISPLAY BUT I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO SPEND THE KIND OF MONEY EVEN THE GOOD REPLICAS BRING NEVER MIND THE ONES SOLD AS AUTHENTIC. IF I LIKE IT AND HAVE A PLACE FOR IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I WILL BUY IT. HERE IS A PICTURE OF A POINT MADE OF TEXAS ALABATES FLINT ITS NOT MINE BUT I HAD TWO POINTS LIKE IT KNAPPED FOR ME THAT LOOK JUST AS GOOD IT TOOK THE KNAPPER LESS THAN 30 MINUTES TO DO BOTH POINTS. THERE ARE MANY GOOD FLINT KNAPPERS AROUND WHO COULD DO AS GOOD OR BETTER SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FAKES /REPLICAS OUT THERE. THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF AUTHENTIC POINTS, BLADES, KNIVES AND SCRAPERS OUT THERE THAT CAN BE MOUNTED IN AXES OR AS KNIVES OR SPEARS. SEVERAL PEOPLE I HAVE KNOW REGULARLY BUY AN OLD INEXPENSIVE GUN AND WITH A BIT OF LEATHER AND A FEW BRASS TACKS AND STUFF MAKE A GUANINE INDIAN GUN TO SELL. I DON'T COLLECT IN THE FIELD BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS AND THERE IS A LOT MORE BOGUS THINGS OUT THERE THAN THE REAL ITEMS. I HAVE BEEN AROUND SUCH STUFF MOST OF MY LIFE AND CAN RECOGNIZE MANY REPLICAS BUT SOME CAN EVEN FOOL THE EXPERTS. SO IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT FIELD TO BEGIN COLLECTING IN A GOOD HONEST DEALER WOULD BE INVALUABLE TO GET STARTED. Attached Images

8th August 2014, 06:58 PM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	In my somewhat limited experience with American Indian weapons, one thing I see consistently is that the thread used to stitch the hide should be sinew, not cotton, until late in the game. There should be some patina at the junction of brass tacks and leather. The chemicals used in the tanning process, whether commercially tanned, or tanned on the Plains using brains of the animal, or untanned rawhide, all will interact with the brass over time, dirt from regular handling will be found in traces in the crevices and overall. There should be a worn in appearance, like everything has been together for a long time, and not look like it has been left on a shelf or handled gingerly, with white cotton gloves as in a museum. Remember, these were tools that could and would be replaced when worn out or broken, not artifacts nought of in the way we do today.

8th August 2014, 09:52 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts? I do not know. All I can say is that if you have ever tried to carve a nice polished pleasant to hold walking stick or hiking stick with some artistic expression, takes many hours.

9th August 2014, 06:07 AM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Glad to contribute. I have known a number of fakers over the years, either "improvers" to antique weaponry, (who just somehow can't leave a good piece alone. They sharpen edges that were not previously sharp, add semiprecious or precious stones, enhance or add names or inscriptions, etc.), creators, who make things from scratch, and, the most dangerous, those who buy marginal pieces that are honest and reverse engineer an interesting provenance to lock several things together that supposedly tell a story using period business cards invoices, photographs, or other things. They, in turn, will sell these conglomerations at gun shows for surprisingly big money. An example of this type are the "Vampire boxes". A nice, period box, a nice old crucifix, old bottles for holy water, an old bible or other holy book, a wooden stake or two, some garlic, an old (and not too valuable pistol of the"period" and maybe a few cast silver bullets thrown in for good measure. I live in a city that through books and movies, somehow has been seen as a home for vampires in the 18th and 19th centuries. There have never, repeat, never been creations like vampire boxes here, or anywhere else. The point of this diatribe is to state that sometime fakers can make good money from their deceptions, and see it as a challenge. They do not think of it terms of the cost of materials and billable hours, straight business, train of thought. A late, and highly respected author of a guide to antique guns asked me at a show about a particular individual who was selling such trash for big money. Apparently things were starting to catch up to him. As we walked around, the person in question just happened to walk down another aisle a row or two away! I pointed him out, both of us astonished that the timing could not have been more perfect. And he had one of his cohorts with him as well! It seems that a number of East Coast collectors who had been taken by this bum were starting to look for him. Anyway, over breakfast the next day, the conversation continued, he asked if I possibly had a photo of him. No, why would I? Well, in the city paper that morning they had a little coverage of this show, and in a picture, guess who was front and center? Not long after that, this person was not to be seen at shows and was rumored to be selling used cars or siding somewhere a thousand miles away! But, as that was seven or eight years ago, I have since heard rumors that he's back, the statute of limitations having run out. The old axiom, "you can't kill bad grass" definitely applies here. I again apologize for the length of this story, I hope that everyone out there in the collecting world will be on guard for this.

9th August 2014, 04:37 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I really do not know what to make of it. I certainly do not think it a tourist item. It was not expensive but also not a that cheap. There is the saying " if looks too good to be true then it probably isn't " There is the chance that it could equally be genuine as it could a fake/reproduction. A very difficult area to dabble in. Many of my Oceanic pieces have been bought at prices too good to be true but they are spot on. My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched. It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

13th September 2014, 12:04 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Doing lots of searching and research on this piece. Not wanting to fill this post with a multitude of links. It is quite possible that this piece is a ceremonial tomahawk, "tomahawk" being rather a misnomer for the original stone axe version. Stone axes were used in dance, ceremony, and as gifts in diplomacy.

18th October 2015, 06:11 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Yes some people are obviously prepared to spend a lot of money on potentially hobby work.

20th October 2015, 04:19 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Interesting objects, late 19th century. http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%204558

25th October 2015, 04:54 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I just cannot help myself now I have found more. http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%209073

31st December 2015, 04:33 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I just want to say that I have identified the stone. "Rhyolite" This pink Rhyolite {high grade} is high in silica which makes knapping possible. It is a volcanic stone. If you look carefully you can see holes where gas has escaped. These holes are known as "Vugs" I am sure you needed to know that. scroll down http://www.thudscave.com/petroglyphs/knappable.htm