St. Peter's Dagger

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2014, 05:04 AM

Its in a glass case, I'd guess maybe 15", end to end.

Oliver Pinchot · 8th August 2014, 05:35 AM

Given the measurements (thanks, Alan) I think the blade is definitely Ottoman of that period. The chiseled, segmented sun disk and Timurid trefoils are characteristic, together with the fullering and the stop at the forte.

The grip may be original to it, the form is reasonable. But the nature of the characters (if that is indeed what they are) which decorate the borders, and the absence of any sort of bolsters rather derail that line of thought, at least for the moment. Perhaps more information will surface at some point. A lovely conundrum, in any case.

ariel · 9th August 2014, 08:38 PM

I would just want to draw your attention to 3 daggers from the book of Bashir Mohammed, - Furussiya Collection. All identified as Timurid Afghani, 11-12th century.

Battara · 9th August 2014, 11:22 PM

Timurid Afgani - not crossed my mind. Does slightly remind me of the profile of an Afgani kukri........

Oliver Pinchot · 9th August 2014, 11:50 PM

Brilliant, Ariel. I was just readying the camera to shoot those images.
The St. Peter dagger is certainly of this family, but I don't agree they are from Timurid Afghanistan. I'm not sure the authors are, either-- note that in the description, the first line reads, "This dagger is said to have been found in present-day Afghanistan."
More manifestly, to me the inlay work may speak of Central Asia but is also reminiscent of the Mamluks (who in turn, influenced the Ottomans.)
Whatever their origin, they do make a good argument for the grip on the S.P. dagger being original to it.
Again, well done!

ariel · 10th August 2014, 03:16 PM

Oliver,
Wouldn't you agree that the distinction between what we know as "present-day Afghanistan" and "present -day Central Asia" is rather artificial? Even now, Tajiks, Turkmen and Uzbeks ( classical Central Asian people) constitute large portion of Afghani population.

At the beginning of the second millennium, Persian culture was the dominant and unifying force in that area. Then the Mongols came.....

Here, BTW, is an old Persian miniature, showing a warrior, decapitating his enemy with a very, very similar knife.

ariel · 10th August 2014, 03:25 PM

And then, there is this enigmatic knife of Prince Andrey Staricki of the early 16th century, the origins of which are still hotly debated in Russian sources, although, IMHO, they are fairly obvious: Islamic, Persian, Mongol,- choose your definition, but no matter what, - Eastern.

9th August 2014, 08:38 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would just want to draw your attention to 3 daggers from the book of Bashir Mohammed, - Furussiya Collection. All identified as Timurid Afghani, 11-12th century. Attached Images

10th August 2014, 03:16 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oliver, Wouldn't you agree that the distinction between what we know as "present-day Afghanistan" and "present -day Central Asia" is rather artificial? Even now, Tajiks, Turkmen and Uzbeks ( classical Central Asian people) constitute large portion of Afghani population. At the beginning of the second millennium, Persian culture was the dominant and unifying force in that area. Then the Mongols came..... Here, BTW, is an old Persian miniature, showing a warrior, decapitating his enemy with a very, very similar knife. Attached Images

10th August 2014, 03:25 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And then, there is this enigmatic knife of Prince Andrey Staricki of the early 16th century, the origins of which are still hotly debated in Russian sources, although, IMHO, they are fairly obvious: Islamic, Persian, Mongol,- choose your definition, but no matter what, - Eastern. Attached Images

8th August 2014, 05:04 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Its in a glass case, I'd guess maybe 15", end to end.

8th August 2014, 05:35 AM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 468	Given the measurements (thanks, Alan) I think the blade is definitely Ottoman of that period. The chiseled, segmented sun disk and Timurid trefoils are characteristic, together with the fullering and the stop at the forte. The grip may be original to it, the form is reasonable. But the nature of the characters (if that is indeed what they are) which decorate the borders, and the absence of any sort of bolsters rather derail that line of thought, at least for the moment. Perhaps more information will surface at some point. A lovely conundrum, in any case.

9th August 2014, 11:22 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Timurid Afgani - not crossed my mind. Does slightly remind me of the profile of an Afgani kukri........

9th August 2014, 11:50 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 468	Brilliant, Ariel. I was just readying the camera to shoot those images. The St. Peter dagger is certainly of this family, but I don't agree they are from Timurid Afghanistan. I'm not sure the authors are, either-- note that in the description, the first line reads, "This dagger is said to have been found in present-day Afghanistan." More manifestly, to me the inlay work may speak of Central Asia but is also reminiscent of the Mamluks (who in turn, influenced the Ottomans.) Whatever their origin, they do make a good argument for the grip on the S.P. dagger being original to it. Again, well done!