Plains stone axe for ?ing

[Tim Simmons]

It has arrived and to my surprise it is really rather nice. I do not know what to make of it. There is quality to it, even patina. It has been constructed with a lot of consideration to weight and balance. It is light and although one could make a mess of somebodies head and face with it I do not think it has been made as an axe. The stone is the right shape for stone blades from the plains { I will upload pics from reference books }
I have taken some pictures that differ somewhat from the sellers. I think they are quite interesting when seem in the light of this thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18864

If I were an authority I might suggest that this may well be a coup stick that just happens to be in the form of an axe.

Not all coup stick are long and like a Sheppards crook { I will upload pictures } I am not saying it is something from the times when Red Cloud sent the army packing. The big but is when does traditional art stop and recreation for a mass tourist market { not to mention the fantasy market, dream catcher style } take over. I might suggest there may well have been a period of transition where real or of the right ethos art was made for limited sale around the turn of the 19/20 centuries. Many real experienced warriors joined Buffalo Bill? It could still be a load of c--p.

[Shakethetrees]

In my somewhat limited experience with American Indian weapons, one thing I see consistently is that the thread used to stitch the hide should be sinew, not cotton, until late in the game.

There should be some patina at the junction of brass tacks and leather.

The chemicals used in the tanning process, whether commercially tanned, or tanned on the Plains using brains of the animal, or untanned rawhide, all will interact with the brass over time, dirt from regular handling will be found in traces in the crevices and overall.

There should be a worn in appearance, like everything has been together for a long time, and not look like it has been left on a shelf or handled gingerly, with white cotton gloves as in a museum.

Remember, these were tools that could and would be replaced when worn out or broken, not artifacts nought of in the way we do today.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts? I do not know. All I can say is that if you have ever tried to carve a nice polished pleasant to hold walking stick or hiking stick with some artistic expression, takes many hours.

[Shakethetrees]

Glad to contribute.

I have known a number of fakers over the years, either "improvers" to antique weaponry, (who just somehow can't leave a good piece alone. They sharpen edges that were not previously sharp, add semiprecious or precious stones, enhance or add names or inscriptions, etc.), creators, who make things from scratch, and, the most dangerous, those who buy marginal pieces that are honest and reverse engineer an interesting provenance to lock several things together that supposedly tell a story using period business cards invoices, photographs, or other things. They, in turn, will sell these conglomerations at gun shows for surprisingly big money. An example of this type are the "Vampire boxes". A nice, period box, a nice old crucifix, old bottles for holy water, an old bible or other holy book, a wooden stake or two, some garlic, an old (and not too valuable pistol of the"period" and maybe a few cast silver bullets thrown in for good measure.

I live in a city that through books and movies, somehow has been seen as a home for vampires in the 18th and 19th centuries. There have never, repeat, never been creations like vampire boxes here, or anywhere else.

The point of this diatribe is to state that sometime fakers can make good money from their deceptions, and see it as a challenge. They do not think of it terms of the cost of materials and billable hours, straight business, train of thought.

A late, and highly respected author of a guide to antique guns asked me at a show about a particular individual who was selling such trash for big money. Apparently things were starting to catch up to him. As we walked around, the person in question just happened to walk down another aisle a row or two away!

I pointed him out, both of us astonished that the timing could not have been more perfect. And he had one of his cohorts with him as well! It seems that a number of East Coast collectors who had been taken by this bum were starting to look for him.

Anyway, over breakfast the next day, the conversation continued, he asked if I possibly had a photo of him. No, why would I?

Well, in the city paper that morning they had a little coverage of this show, and in a picture, guess who was front and center?

Not long after that, this person was not to be seen at shows and was rumored to be selling used cars or siding somewhere a thousand miles away!

But, as that was seven or eight years ago, I have since heard rumors that he's back, the statute of limitations having run out.

The old axiom, "you can't kill bad grass" definitely applies here.

I again apologize for the length of this story, I hope that everyone out there in the collecting world will be on guard for this.

[Tim Simmons]

I really do not know what to make of it. I certainly do not think it a tourist item. It was not expensive but also not a that cheap. There is the saying " if looks too good to be true then it probably isn't " There is the chance that it could equally be genuine as it could a fake/reproduction. A very difficult area to dabble in. Many of my Oceanic pieces have been bought at prices too good to be true but they are spot on. My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched.

It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... My collecting has been from the outside edge concentrating on the over looked, unfashionable and the least researched.

It fits in so it will not be banished from the collection as other errors have been.

My sentiments too, Tim. I like to find odd things that others have overlooked, ones that are not necessarily "pretty" but interesting and that need some digging around to learn more. Taking a risk every now and again is exciting. I still have my "drawer of shame" where the mistakes lie!

Perhaps we all have some of these sentiments, but only a few talk about them.

Ian.

[VANDOO]

I BUY THE OCCASIONAL WELL MADE NATIVE AMERICAN ITEM IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. I ALWAYS ASSUME ANY STONE POINT, AX, CLUB OR SHIELD TO BE A REPLICA UNLESS I FIND IT MYSELF OR KNOW THE PERSON WITH PROVENANCE VERY WELL AND TRUST THEM A LOT. I USE THEM AS DECORATIVE ITEMS AND THEY DO MAKE A VERY NICE DISPLAY BUT I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO SPEND THE KIND OF MONEY EVEN THE GOOD REPLICAS BRING NEVER MIND THE ONES SOLD AS AUTHENTIC. IF I LIKE IT AND HAVE A PLACE FOR IT AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT I WILL BUY IT.
HERE IS A PICTURE OF A POINT MADE OF TEXAS ALABATES FLINT ITS NOT MINE BUT I HAD TWO POINTS LIKE IT KNAPPED FOR ME THAT LOOK JUST AS GOOD IT TOOK THE KNAPPER LESS THAN 30 MINUTES TO DO BOTH POINTS. THERE ARE MANY GOOD FLINT KNAPPERS AROUND WHO COULD DO AS GOOD OR BETTER SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FAKES /REPLICAS OUT THERE. THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF AUTHENTIC POINTS, BLADES, KNIVES AND SCRAPERS OUT THERE THAT CAN BE MOUNTED IN AXES OR AS KNIVES OR SPEARS. SEVERAL PEOPLE I HAVE KNOW REGULARLY BUY AN OLD INEXPENSIVE GUN AND WITH A BIT OF LEATHER AND A FEW BRASS TACKS AND STUFF MAKE A GUANINE INDIAN GUN TO SELL. I DON'T COLLECT IN THE FIELD BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS AND THERE IS A LOT MORE BOGUS THINGS OUT THERE THAN THE REAL ITEMS. I HAVE BEEN AROUND SUCH STUFF MOST OF MY LIFE AND CAN RECOGNIZE MANY REPLICAS BUT SOME CAN EVEN FOOL THE EXPERTS. SO IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT FIELD TO BEGIN COLLECTING IN A GOOD HONEST DEALER WOULD BE INVALUABLE TO GET STARTED.

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you for your interest. This piece is sewn with sinew, but supplies of thread sinew can be found on the internet. The stone takes some skill to make. How much time does it take to do this? How much money does a faker , fantasy reproduction artist want from thier efforts?

It's an interesting item for sure Tim. One possibility doesn't really seem to be considered here. Sometimes hobbyists create pieces like this purely for their own enjoyment. A am currently working on my own battle axe right now. Forged the head from a railway spike. So it may not necessarily be a matter of how much effort a faker might be willing to put into such a piece for the effort. I have put many hours of work into my axe and shed a bit of blood over it besides. It's about the love and accomplishment of making the thing, not any money since it is not for sale. But years down the line when some one finds it in my estate sale...???
Of course my axe isn't being made to appear to be from any one culture so it probably won't fool anyone. But lots of folks make such things as close to original specs as they can just to show they can still do it.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes some people are obviously prepared to spend a lot of money on potentially hobby work.

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting objects, late 19th century.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%204558

[Tim Simmons]

I just cannot help myself now I have found more.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...0%20%2F%209073

[Roland_M]

Hello Tim,

a few years ago I bought a North American flint stone arrow head, which is some hundred years old. If the blade is old and real, the edge should be sharp, this is a very important point. My arrowhead is still very sharp.

I have a modern reproduction spear head, made from vulcano glass. A translucent spear head, looks very nice but it is unsharp.


Kind regards Roland

[Tim Simmons]

I am only adding this link as again it supports my hypothesis that this could well be genuine. Read stone tomahawks more fancy than everyday ones.

http://www.indians.org/articles/nati...tomahawks.html

[Tim Simmons]

In this thread I suggested that this item could possibly be a coup stick. I am not saying it is and I am not convinced, but look here. Possible? The same length 29 inches.

http://www.icollector.com/Plains-Coup-Stick_i9667226

also here
https://www.bidsquare.com/l/190/plains-coup-stick