The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...

What your reference indicates is that ...first there was also another dance with daggers ... I will set that aside first as from another Funun Genre called the "Baraa..." very much part of the Funun in the Salalah or Dhofar region.

On the Dancing Sword what you say is partly right... before the springy dancing sword the Battle Sword was used in the Funun... (it goes way back thats why its called "the traditions")... It didn't suddenly start with the dancing sword. This explains why the accoutrement..the Terrs ... and the sharp edges and round tip are copied onto the dancer... from the Battle Sword. In this regard it is time specific as an invention at or about the start of the current dynasty but which I think is 70 or 80 years later... in the reign of Said bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856...

Your reference describes the Razha.... (I was not accurate in describing that) It involves the lines of dancing participants... The other pantomime or semi contest is the mimic fight...with 2 participants and the single winning point won by touching the opponents thumb behind his terrs shield.

It is however vital to separate the two functions of fighting sword and dancer. The dancer was never a fighting sword and no other derivitive of it existed with some thicker blade... It just is not there. If it was the museums would have them hanging on the walls and in glass cases and with write ups....None ! The Reference work from Richardson and Dorr would be teaming with them.... and the simple question to fathers, grandfathers and elders ... Was this sword or anything similar ever used in fighting?.... Puzzled looks.... Retorts like "are you crackers"?... hahaha!! general mirth and poking of fun and derision....and mutterings.... No way.

It therefor begs the question... where have these thicker heavier non flexible blades come from.... They are post 1970 Muttrah rehilts as described.

Yes you are correct in that I know what the sword is and indeed it is an inference logically based ... The Manga were the dancers from Muscat ... This was the Funun... so knowing that the traditions were only done with the dancer....etc... Inference...

I said there was no silver bullet at my summary, however, the great body of work is indicative of the heraldic, non combat dancer... with the flexible blade.... No other weapon based upon this form ever existed.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...
.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .



You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.



And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

Salaams Spiral, I refer you to my 10 point plan but I do reply to your post in the hope that you observe the common courtesy demanded of this Forum since from my viewpoint I have studied this subject thoroughly whilst others have only scratched the surface... and I have always been aware of the heated nature of this discussion... heat is ok... when it's correctly turned up... The hot anvil of discussion.

There is a vast omount of work to be done on this sword both in and out of museums and documents and I must have driven thousands of miles around the country finding out the facts. Oman is a country that only ventured into the modern world in 1970... much is still undocumented fully.

Forum is the first priority insofar as I am concerned and if I have uncovered a demon... a sword that has no place in the countrys history then I will report just that... and I have done. It's a non starter... It's a red herring ... It doesn't and never did exist...I wish it did ...

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Shalom Ibrahim.

To save the repetition of typing...

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

No, you are not... you are a person, to whom a false quotation means "to break a few eggs along the way" (quote Ibrahiim al Balooshi).

And that together with your scholarly attitude.

[Andrew]

Okay, gentlemen. Here is how this is going to work.

The next person (or persons) who is unable to continue this "debate" in a neutral, objective manner will cause this thread to be locked, and will receive a 10 day suspension of posting privileges.

This means you should studiously avoid including any comment within your post that the least aggravated among us might construe as rude, inflammatory, ad hominem, a "dig", etc. Perhaps you might even consider limiting your comments to---wait for it---the merits of the other posters' comments, rather than the posters themselves.

We rapidly approach critical mass here...

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Forum ~ The well documented detail of the flexible dancing sword can be seen at the fine reference from David viz; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104401332677 and until I can trace the reference by H Ingrams who it can be seen at my post above was a fine historian who wrote the book on Zanzibar and in fact another load of anecdotes on Hadramaut ..who knows maybe it is one of those references that got crossed in the system though if my memory serves me well I am almost certain it was on the subject of Manga ...a structure I had never heard about until I wrote the reference in Kattara for comments...a while ago but researchers know well my predicament and that when it turns up I will place it here.

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men...

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ... A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest... moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Noted in full Andrew. Thank you. Ive been doing my best...

iechyd da boyo Ibrahim!

To further help your reference search for the elusive quote from an unknown place,source or origin { perhaps by the respected researcher Ingrams or perhaps not... }

Namely.....

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

These screen below captures may help.

Despite the whole book not being available online from google books, a word search on the relevant reference page brings up the references, even for pages that are not officially available.

linky to the book of words.

Its a very useful tool, I found so anyway.

Fascinatingly the relevant song & dance chapters you citied are also complete! {Rather than having to use the internal word search function.}

{Its the 1931 edtion you original quoted before understandable uncertainty of your source set in.}

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men... I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon. Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to 90 degrees some less than others

Have you considered that the fact in your imagination & that of your trader friends & associates in fake Omani swords that all fighting blades are rigid, could be wrong?.

Historically in many cultures this is wrong! A blow from a razor sharp 30 inch or whatever blade of thin whippy spring steel construction will cut you to the bone, slide down the bone & remove great hanging pieces of flesh & sinew , slicing arteries as it does so.

Highly efficient against tribesmen peasants & slaves, {not to mention women & children. } {ref. page 144 in Ingrams excellent work..}wearing a thin dress of cotton at most.

That is a fact.

If you & your associates down at the dockside souks are unaware of it that's another thing. ...Have you contemplated that as possible Ibrahim? Perhaps a little wider research will help you there?

Skinny spring steels blades will strip you bare to the bone......If razor sharp of course...

Spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Please look back along these roads, there is still much to see and consider.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...

What is a battle worthy blade to you? Please describe this.

Have a look here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcLH9p-mKsY

Jian are of a less broad elliptical cross section, sometimes diamond cross section and typically without fullers, take particular note of the flex.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ...

But it does stack up. Would you like me to show you how an Omani straight sword, one you consider is for dance only, how it cuts in real life. You ask for proof, will this along with all the other written words from time past, convince you?

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest...

Study sword play please, the heavier blade will not make mincemeat of a lighter supple blade, the lighter supple blade is faster in the hand, like a razor and bends to its masters hand. The skilled warrior with such a light sword will conquer the enemy much quicker and without effort...the long handle offers a wonder twist in fighting too.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

Indeed it is famous in the funun, its origins and purpose as missed by you though.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists

But it does, it stares you in the face and sits in your hands.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

It is amazing, very amazing, amazing only for the single blade type you have presented as a souk sword from Ethiopia, a very stout and standard fullered blade type of EU origins made for the Ethiopian market, not even close to the form this far of these fair Oman swords.
It is further amazing that the blade proportions and types of the Oman sword being discussed are not found in the Ethiopian sword forms. Of the 25+ forms I have handled over hundreds of Ethiopian swords and thousands more I have viewed, the blade type found in the Oman long handled sword it not one of them. I will not say they do not exist, there may be several examples from northern borders but the claim that Souks have remounted Ethiopian blade in long hilted Omani style, is to this point not shown or proved beyond your hearsay...which is contrary to the facts I note above.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

The long handled form carries both blade forms, heavy and light. Complete and further study will eventually lead you fact to your first thoughts about the sword.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Would you like my autograph :-) I can't take credit though, it has always been there.