Citric soak

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you Detlef. I will approach the blade with a more hands on approach when time permits and if the gold looks safe I'll deliver a final etch at the end.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Detlef, I agree totally, that is why I wrote:-

"---That gold may not get through a soak---"

I have found that the most reliable way in which to find out if the gold is firmly attached is to go ahead and soak the blade in some sort of acidic bath:- if the gold is still in place on the blade when you take it out of the bath you can bet that it is firmly attached.

But jokes aside, with any gold on blades, especially the sort gold we find on keris blades, it is best to be super cautious. It can sometimes be a good idea to clean mechanically first, then follow up with very selective and cautious brushing of the acidic medium.

Another way to tackle the problem of cleaning gold ornamented blades is to paint over the gold with nail polish, but this is not recommended unless the gold does look to be pretty secure. The polish comes off easily enough with acetone.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have found that the most reliable way in which to find out if the gold is firmly attached is to go ahead and soak the blade in some sort of acidic bath:- if the gold is still in place on the blade when you take it out of the bath you can bet that it is firmly attached.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But jokes aside, with any gold on blades, especially the sort gold we find on keris blades, it is best to be super cautious. It can sometimes be a good idea to clean mechanically first, then follow up with very selective and cautious brushing of the acidic medium.

Another way to tackle the problem of cleaning gold ornamented blades is to paint over the gold with nail polish, but this is not recommended unless the gold does look to be pretty secure. The polish comes off easily enough with acetone.

Yes, I agree with you. I have cleaned once a blade with gold by brushing the blade carefully with fresh opened lemons which I have bought in an asia shop.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Something has occurred to me with all this talk about "gold on blade" business.

We haven't said how the gold is attached to the blade.

Without straining the brain cells too hard I can think of 4 ways that gold is put onto a blade:-

old fashioned fire gilding

attached with natural resin --- or in the modern age with a commercial adhesive

mechanical attachment by roughening the surface and hammering the gold over the design set out by roughening (koftgari)

mechanical attachment where an undercut cavity is cut into the blade surface, a lump of gold is hammered into the cavity so that the gold enters the undercuts, and leaves a large lump of gold above the surface of the blade, then that gold is carved. Effectively this is inlay, in the case of Indonesian blades, inlay that is sometimes very exaggerated.

If the gold is old fashioned fire gilding it is not a good idea ever to soak the rusty blade in an acidic medium

If the gold is attached by resin or other adhesive the decision to soak or not depends upon the degree of corrosion:- if there is a good chance that the rust has penetrated beneath the surface of the adhesive, you do not soak; if the rust is just a light surface dusting you brush with acid. In between these two extremes your experience guides you with the right way to go.

With typical Indian koftgari gold attachment I would never, ever soak, nor try to remove rust with an acidic medium in any way. Far better to conserve and live with the russetted surface. However, with good quality kinatah work, which is similar to koftgari work, the gold is often quite heavy and the attachment is robust. I would always think a number of times before I soaked a blade like this, even though it might not lose any gold, but I would not hesitate to clean by brushing with an acidic medium.

Where the gold has been attached by hammering into a dove-tailed hole in the blade, cautious soaking and careful brushing are both possible. Even if the gold carving works loose from the cavity, modern adhesives permit undetectable replacement.

In fact, I personally regard soaking as a "lazy-man's" way of cleaning blades. Yeah, sure I've used it and used it many times, but I do not believe it is the best way to clean any blade, including keris. I do believe that painstaking mechanical cleaning followed by careful acidic brushing is probably the best way to clean the blades of S.E.Asia.

I have read of other methods where electric current is used, but I have no knowledge nor experience of these methods. From what I have heard, cleaning in this way might well be superior to the traditional methods that I know.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, I personally regard soaking as a "lazy-man's" way of cleaning blades. Yeah, sure I've used it and used it many times, but I do not believe it is the best way to clean any blade, including keris. I do believe that painstaking mechanical cleaning followed by careful acidic brushing is probably the best way to clean the blades of S.E.Asia.

Very good said! And again my full agreement.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Even if the gold carving works loose from the cavity, modern adhesives permit undetectable replacement.

Alan, is there a particular modern adhesive you would recommend for such repair?

[A. G. Maisey]

The "gold-back-into-hole" job?

My personal favourite adhesive for anything like this is Araldite, its a two part epoxy glue. There is a version that sets within 5 minutes, and another one that sets overnight --- they say an hour, but it only sets in an hour in warm to hot weather.

The surfaces need to be roughened up a little and be very clean and free from any grease, acetone is good for this, and the job needs to be firmly clamped while the stuff sets.

Not clamped to the point where the adhesive gets squeezed out, but just a good firm pressure. With the 5 minute stuff you can just hold it tight with your fingers while it sets.

Once set, but not cured, you trim off the excess with a sharp blade. You can also wash off barely set excess with water, and set excess with acetone, but I have seen jobs come adrift if too much of the fluid is used, or too little care is used, its safer to let it just set up firm, then trim. You can only get as neat as you can see, so bright light and magnification is essential.

In Indonesia they use one of the 'super-glues' for anything like this, but these adhesives dry out after a while, usually a few years, and everything comes loose and you can lose little bits. This is particularly true of the stones in mendak and selut --- if its an old mendak or selut and had stones replaced in Jawa you can bet its been done with Alteco (a super-glue); eventually the glue will give way and you'll lose a stone, and rose cut rock crystal is not all that easy to find outside Jawa --- even in Jawa its not that easy any more. If the stone is a rose cut diamond its even more difficult to get one.

Sorry for the long answer.

Short answer:- Araldite.

[Shakethetrees]

Mr. Maisey's advice is excellent!

I have professionally restored blades (and other antique metalwork) for about thirty years. I had the opportunity to participate in a workshop taught by a Western metal smith and his Japanese trained wife whose names I forget just now, both acknowledged masters in their craft. My experience has been with mostly American and European blades, but with some Asian work as well.

I have done a little inlay from scratch as well as restored "around" it and over it depending on the type, or not at all.

Fire gilt decoration on blades is completely fugitive, so the smart thing is to stay away unless the problem endangers the blade to the point where a percentage of sacrificed gilding is a necessary cost in order to preserve the life of the whole.

Likewise with koftghari--too delicate to risk.

I have never run across any gold adhered by an organic adhesive, unless it's on a modern blade, something I usually do not fool with.

A restorer's dream is a blade mounted with undercut secured inlay, I believe the Japanese terms are sen zogan for line inlay, hira zogan for two dimensional inlay. I have rarely seen these last two come loose, but if the inlay is flush with the surface and pure gold (not low karat alloy) it can be carefully tapped into place, spreading the gold into any voids, locking it mechanically and securely. But, I emphasize pure gold only, and very light tapping using the end grain of a hardwood dowel specially shaped for the purpose.

If you have any doubt about your abilities, or any other reservations, leave it alone.

[max]

As you can see the rust lay's between the gold pieces

[GIO]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have read of other methods where electric current is used, but I have no knowledge nor experience of these methods. From what I have heard, cleaning in this way might well be superior to the traditional methods that I know.

I did used the electric system to remove rust. It works but long lasting treatment is required. I think that it would work with kinatah.
Gio

You can use a 12V car battery. The liquid is a NaOH solution.
The process may take 12 - 24 hours with no risk of damage. Only the rust will be removed.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Giovanni.

If it also removes the rust that is underneath the gold, then that would trouble me, because with old kinatah it is only the rust that is holding the kinatah in place. With kinatah we need to remove the surrounding rust and not disturb what is under the kinatah.

I do think this electric method might be better for a plain steel blade though.

[drdavid]

Hi Gio
what strength NaOH have you used in this set up
what sort of wire are you using in the coils, copper?
regards
DrDavid