Plains stone axe for ?ing

Ian · 25th July 2014, 01:29 AM

Tim,

Those brass tacks don't look quite right to me. There appear to be none missing, which would be unusual for an otherwise older looking piece. Fearn has also commented on the "pristine" condition of those studs. I would have expected at least an occasional ding on at least one stud over the lifetime of an old axe.

Similarly, the haft and leather work look to be complete--nothing obviously missing. This just raises some red flags for me.

I sincerely hope you have lucked out here!

Cheers,

Ian.

jwkiernan · 25th July 2014, 02:14 AM

Tim,

I have been on this form for many years, but have become more active since my retirement from the military. I have collected stone tools since I was a child (grew up in Eastern Colorado on a ranch), have done extensive archaeological work, and have even lectured once (as a guest) on the production of stone tools at the University of Maryland. My replication (stone tools are my forte) work can be seen online by typing in my name and flint knapping in a Google search...just to give you some background on me and artifacts.

I have been fortunate to handle some of the finest collections of stone tools, as well as perishables in the country. I have never seen anything like this outside a tourist stop. It just looks wrong from so many levels. HOWEVER, I'd love to see better/clearer photos of the stone head, there is a small possibility that it could be an older piece married into its current wardrobe.

The head reminds me of a typically bi-facially worked preform for a larger knife form. There are bi-facially worked chert/flint axes found here in the States however most are bowtie shaped and some from the south can be shaped a bit like yours. This doesn't even take in to account prestige items that were made for status not utilization (although could have been). Most all true ax or celt forms are normally made of a different type of lithic material (metabasalts ect.) and instead of being left in a flaked stage are smoothed and shaped by a process of pecking and polishing. Not too unlike the process for polished bit flint celts from the UK and the square sectioned axes of the upper Baltic and Scandinavia.

The true "war clubs" whether ball type or the bi-pointed type, along with hafted mauls found on the plains are normally made by pecking and polishing as well and normally have a prominent central groove in the head to facilitate hafting.

I could bore you with hours of drivel on stone tools...I found my first one when I was 8 years old and they continue to be a passion 41 years later (and always will)...I love sharp, pointy things! Hope this helps and is not too disappointing, but again, just my opinion. Feel free to PM me if you have further questions...just my 2 cents. Take care.

All my best,

John

trenchwarfare · 25th July 2014, 03:32 AM

As a casual student of Native American weapons, I agree with John. Most weapons being as he described. My thoughts are, that this is an early 20th century, "tourista" piece. If that's the case, it is still very desirable, and valuable. Items from that era, can sell for thousands.

Tim Simmons · 25th July 2014, 07:45 AM

Thanks for the most interesting replies. Fortunately the cost was bearable. My only riposte will be that I can provide pictures of examples from books of collections that differ. Also examples of artifacts with no missing beads or decorative elements. We all have perfect pieces in our collections? I do appreciate your input.

John, I would like opinions on this stone club?

jwkiernan · 26th July 2014, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thanks for the most interesting replies. Fortunately the cost was bearable. My only riposte will be that I can provide pictures of examples from books of collections that differ. Also examples of artifacts with no missing beads or decorative elements. We all have perfect pieces in our collections? I do appreciate your input.

John, I would like opinions on this stone club?

Tim,

This piece looks a lot better to me (again, I'd need to see close-ups of the stone head to truly give you my opinion on it). The haft looks correct, the sewing of and the age of the rawhide looks correct (old rawhide unless kept in the right environment continues to shrink and shrivel and take on a more aged appearance). The handle (again from what I can see in the photos) appears to have use wear and I think I can see the remnants of what appears to be abrasive marks from shaping the handle with stone tools.

Most times utilitarian tools lack the refinery seen in other formalized stone tools. All of the authentic, "war clubs", if you will that I have seen/handled have had very nice refined heads normally of some type of quartzite normally naturally occurring rock in the shaped desired...even these normally had a groove pecked in/around the center to facilitate hafting (in a manner demonstrated in the last piece you displayed). Remember, these weapons were designed for maximum impact and affect, normally are very hardy and made of a material that can withstand repetitive impacts. Flint/chert can meet those requirements (referring to your original post) but must be constructed correctly (engineered as pertaining to the overall design of the head) with the right angle on the bit, and made out of a tougher flint or chert.

As far as perfect pieces, I get more afraid/leery of a perfect example of any stone tool or hafted tool. First off, perfect specimens are out there, but in extremely limited numbers, especially for plains peices. Finding preserved hafted artifacts (North American) of true antiquity is very rare as the conditions ideal for the preservation of perishables only exist in a few regions of N. America (normally arid, desert areas) or if they were collected and curated somewhere in their life. I have a few acquaintances that have extensive perishable collections with outstanding examples of netting, sandals, pieces of arrow/dart shafts, atlatls ect. The stuff is out there, but rare.

I hope this helps...again, the last piece you posted from what I see looks like a nice older utilitarian piece...North America, I am not sure without closer examination of the head...but again, I like it and it looks right! Have a great and safe weekend!

All my best,

John

Tim Simmons · 7th August 2014, 04:37 PM

It has arrived and to my surprise it is really rather nice. I do not know what to make of it. There is quality to it, even patina. It has been constructed with a lot of consideration to weight and balance. It is light and although one could make a mess of somebodies head and face with it I do not think it has been made as an axe. The stone is the right shape for stone blades from the plains { I will upload pics from reference books }
I have taken some pictures that differ somewhat from the sellers. I think they are quite interesting when seem in the light of this thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18864

If I were an authority I might suggest that this may well be a coup stick that just happens to be in the form of an axe.

Not all coup stick are long and like a Sheppards crook { I will upload pictures } I am not saying it is something from the times when Red Cloud sent the army packing. The big but is when does traditional art stop and recreation for a mass tourist market { not to mention the fantasy market, dream catcher style } take over. I might suggest there may well have been a period of transition where real or of the right ethos art was made for limited sale around the turn of the 19/20 centuries. Many real experienced warriors joined Buffalo Bill? It could still be a load of c--p.

Shakethetrees · 8th August 2014, 06:58 PM

In my somewhat limited experience with American Indian weapons, one thing I see consistently is that the thread used to stitch the hide should be sinew, not cotton, until late in the game.

There should be some patina at the junction of brass tacks and leather.

The chemicals used in the tanning process, whether commercially tanned, or tanned on the Plains using brains of the animal, or untanned rawhide, all will interact with the brass over time, dirt from regular handling will be found in traces in the crevices and overall.

There should be a worn in appearance, like everything has been together for a long time, and not look like it has been left on a shelf or handled gingerly, with white cotton gloves as in a museum.

Remember, these were tools that could and would be replaced when worn out or broken, not artifacts nought of in the way we do today.

Roland_M · 13th April 2015, 03:35 PM

Hello Tim,

a few years ago I bought a North American flint stone arrow head, which is some hundred years old. If the blade is old and real, the edge should be sharp, this is a very important point. My arrowhead is still very sharp.

I have a modern reproduction spear head, made from vulcano glass. A translucent spear head, looks very nice but it is unsharp.

Kind regards Roland

25th July 2014, 07:45 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Thanks for the most interesting replies. Fortunately the cost was bearable. My only riposte will be that I can provide pictures of examples from books of collections that differ. Also examples of artifacts with no missing beads or decorative elements. We all have perfect pieces in our collections? I do appreciate your input. John, I would like opinions on this stone club? Attached Images

7th August 2014, 04:37 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	It has arrived and to my surprise it is really rather nice. I do not know what to make of it. There is quality to it, even patina. It has been constructed with a lot of consideration to weight and balance. It is light and although one could make a mess of somebodies head and face with it I do not think it has been made as an axe. The stone is the right shape for stone blades from the plains { I will upload pics from reference books } I have taken some pictures that differ somewhat from the sellers. I think they are quite interesting when seem in the light of this thread- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18864 If I were an authority I might suggest that this may well be a coup stick that just happens to be in the form of an axe. Not all coup stick are long and like a Sheppards crook { I will upload pictures } I am not saying it is something from the times when Red Cloud sent the army packing. The big but is when does traditional art stop and recreation for a mass tourist market { not to mention the fantasy market, dream catcher style } take over. I might suggest there may well have been a period of transition where real or of the right ethos art was made for limited sale around the turn of the 19/20 centuries. Many real experienced warriors joined Buffalo Bill? It could still be a load of c--p. Attached Images

25th July 2014, 01:29 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Tim, Those brass tacks don't look quite right to me. There appear to be none missing, which would be unusual for an otherwise older looking piece. Fearn has also commented on the "pristine" condition of those studs. I would have expected at least an occasional ding on at least one stud over the lifetime of an old axe. Similarly, the haft and leather work look to be complete--nothing obviously missing. This just raises some red flags for me. I sincerely hope you have lucked out here! Cheers, Ian.

25th July 2014, 02:14 AM	#2
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	Tim, I have been on this form for many years, but have become more active since my retirement from the military. I have collected stone tools since I was a child (grew up in Eastern Colorado on a ranch), have done extensive archaeological work, and have even lectured once (as a guest) on the production of stone tools at the University of Maryland. My replication (stone tools are my forte) work can be seen online by typing in my name and flint knapping in a Google search...just to give you some background on me and artifacts. I have been fortunate to handle some of the finest collections of stone tools, as well as perishables in the country. I have never seen anything like this outside a tourist stop. It just looks wrong from so many levels. HOWEVER, I'd love to see better/clearer photos of the stone head, there is a small possibility that it could be an older piece married into its current wardrobe. The head reminds me of a typically bi-facially worked preform for a larger knife form. There are bi-facially worked chert/flint axes found here in the States however most are bowtie shaped and some from the south can be shaped a bit like yours. This doesn't even take in to account prestige items that were made for status not utilization (although could have been). Most all true ax or celt forms are normally made of a different type of lithic material (metabasalts ect.) and instead of being left in a flaked stage are smoothed and shaped by a process of pecking and polishing. Not too unlike the process for polished bit flint celts from the UK and the square sectioned axes of the upper Baltic and Scandinavia. The true "war clubs" whether ball type or the bi-pointed type, along with hafted mauls found on the plains are normally made by pecking and polishing as well and normally have a prominent central groove in the head to facilitate hafting. I could bore you with hours of drivel on stone tools...I found my first one when I was 8 years old and they continue to be a passion 41 years later (and always will)...I love sharp, pointy things! Hope this helps and is not too disappointing, but again, just my opinion. Feel free to PM me if you have further questions...just my 2 cents. Take care. All my best, John

25th July 2014, 03:32 AM	#3
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	As a casual student of Native American weapons, I agree with John. Most weapons being as he described. My thoughts are, that this is an early 20th century, "tourista" piece. If that's the case, it is still very desirable, and valuable. Items from that era, can sell for thousands.

8th August 2014, 06:58 PM	#7
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	In my somewhat limited experience with American Indian weapons, one thing I see consistently is that the thread used to stitch the hide should be sinew, not cotton, until late in the game. There should be some patina at the junction of brass tacks and leather. The chemicals used in the tanning process, whether commercially tanned, or tanned on the Plains using brains of the animal, or untanned rawhide, all will interact with the brass over time, dirt from regular handling will be found in traces in the crevices and overall. There should be a worn in appearance, like everything has been together for a long time, and not look like it has been left on a shelf or handled gingerly, with white cotton gloves as in a museum. Remember, these were tools that could and would be replaced when worn out or broken, not artifacts nought of in the way we do today.

13th April 2015, 03:35 PM	#8
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello Tim, a few years ago I bought a North American flint stone arrow head, which is some hundred years old. If the blade is old and real, the edge should be sharp, this is a very important point. My arrowhead is still very sharp. I have a modern reproduction spear head, made from vulcano glass. A translucent spear head, looks very nice but it is unsharp. Kind regards Roland