The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".


Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)...

Thus I show the Mwarcha Zanzibari dance below to compare swords, dress, style and tribal differences.etc. with the more regimented straight line formal salutation and dance of the Omani style with dancing swords and shields. Dress is quite formal including Khanjar.



Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

Greeting Ibrahim...

As interesting as Ingrams quote is, you forgot to post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.

.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Salaams Spiral, You speak of a book written in 1600... can you show me some of the extracts as I don't have that reference... I need to see what they mean at the time by "Yemen"( quite often Yemen meant or included the coastal Horn Of Africa)...and to look at sketches or descriptions of the weapons..(since I have no idea what is in the book).

They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy from http://archive.org/stream/tuzukijaha...auoft_djvu.txt though I did note that there were many discrepancies particularly in the many translations of this work... nevertheless I would like to see the context.

In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }.

Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky

A bargain for you at less than $250.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy..

mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.
.

Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

].

Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky

A bargain for you at less than $250.





mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!





Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.



Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?






Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

Salaams all~ The question is posted requiring proof of H Ingrams the secretary to the Royal House in Zanzibar and an expert on the region just after the turn of the Century and probably in about 1910 for a book published a few years later in which he observes a dance in Zanzibar... quite specific ...in that only Omani dancers were involved..... In fact it is the Razha which as all Omani people recognise as being from the Genre of weapon dances from the Funun..which only uses straight Omani Swords of the flexible variety since its inception in about the early 1800s. That part of the Genre is called the Razha. Thus his stattement stands as correct...viz;

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

Furthur references may be checked by working back from my post at #189.

In Reference to a note Jahingar in Tuzuk ostensibly quoted in Eggerton.
The statement that the old Yemeni world encompassed Oman is understandably niaive ...at the time of the book around 1600 which in itself, though, fascinating, no matter which copy you may have in front of you (but I have to say 250 us dollars seems a lot since it is a free download otherwise) it has rather the reputation of being vague in places and innacurate in others~ not least because of the nature of the work as a sort of Royal Travelogue...and the trophies gained thereon... and since there are many translations/hiccups along the way. Whilst it may well be essential reading for Indian arms and Armour and history it remains a very blurred, minor reference and not one penciled in my margin in this regard.

However taking that copy as gospel for what its worth the statement about Yemeni or southern blades is somewhat misleading...because it could have referred to a host of countries production including Sri Lanka. It may well have meant some Horn of Africa blade as that was called Yemen on ancient maps in that timeframe 1600... or even European blades. There is absolutely no factual intensity which underpins flexible blades coming from Oman at that time..None whatsoever!

I feel certain that the National Museum would have noticed..

Naturally we are all alert at the potential of Hadramauti blades..and not least because the old Omani Battle Sword is also known as the Sayf Yamaani...quite possibly a Hadramaut blade or from the ancient town of Izki (in Oman) which has a quarter called Yemen; I personally suspect Hadramaut for the Old Omani Battle Sword*, though, there is no connection apparent for the Dancing sword from a manufacturing viewpoint. See Zutoot.

*I remind readers that the Old Omani Battle Sword was very rigid. (See The Old Omani Battle Sword.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword. .

And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....



And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of W.H. Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples, in 1931. ( I believe it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British period in Zanzibar and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule, see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth, Zanzibar under the Foreign Office 1890-1913, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet, A History of the Arab State ofZanzibar, London,1978,
M.L.Lofchie,Zanzibar. Background to Revolution, Princeton Univ. Press, 1965. See also theaccounts given by R.N.Lyne,Zanzibar inContemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,1905,

and W.H.Ingrams, Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience as an administrator from 1919 and actually later in Hadramaut where he displayed brilliant service ~in "Kattara for comments" ~though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought derogatory questions to this table in what Ingrams himself would perhaps have described as slightly inflamatory. Humbug even? Personally I wouldn't like to comment since rule 1 is quite sufficiently clear, though, the comment on fabrication is hardly one of complicit teamwork and honourable discussion for which I thought as participants we had signed up to....however....

Some disagreement appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) through H. Ingrams statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork; reported previously on Forum as "Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes"~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced by Omanis and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield; The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges, flexible and mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; W H Ingrams was a well respected historian known in his day for his brilliant rendition on "Zanzibar and its Peoples" which I outline as;

Quote" This reprint of this celebrated classic text on Zanzibar makes available again the remarkably comprehensive account of the Island of Cloves, written by W. H. Ingrams and first published in 1931. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is essentially an historical ethnography of Zanzibar. The author describes local legends, and their important social function in recording and constituting the oral history of the island. Ingrams' extensive observations and personal experiences - both on the main island of Unguja and Pemba and the smaller islands which make up Zanzibar - provide a detailed and lively account of society at the time and make engaging reading. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is a comprehensive work, perhaps daunting on account of its size, but a joy to read and a rich resource." Said El-Gheithy, The Sayyida Salme Foundation."Unquote.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of Wh Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples in 1931. ( I beklieve it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British
period in Zanzibar
and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule,
see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth,
Zanzibar under
the Foreign Office 1890-1913
, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet,
A History of the Arab State of
Zanzibar
, London,
1978,
M.L.Lofchie,
Zanzibar. Background to Revolution
, Princeton Univ.
Press, 1965. See also the
accounts given by R.N.Lyne,
Zanzibar in
Contemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,
1905,

and W.H.
Ingrams,
Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples
, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience in "Kattara for comments" though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring...from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought to this table.

Some offence appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) in his statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork which stated Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced in Oman and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield. The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges and Flexible mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well that makes the water Muddier but just feature more untruths. Disguised within a list of references.


I have great respect for W. Ingrams work About Zanzibar. Its not his statements or words I doubt....

You mention Chapter 39 pages 399

chapter 37 starts on page 399

it covers music & dance as you say.

No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

Chapter 38 on page 411 continues about music & dance.
No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

{Although it does mention a song sang by the genital mutilator while sharpening his knife. "to frighten"}

Chapter 39 is about nature & starts on page. 423.

If you say your not making up falsehoods & lies.

Then please supply the necessary quote about your statement..

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

Because the truth is, Its not true. Its not in the book

You made it up. It is a lie.

Ingram never said it.

Spiral

[David]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? .

Obviously.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Of course not, as you know I don't agree with your hypothesis.

I am aware of the modern fake Oman swords sold by some Omani websites & the fakes you have posted pictures of. I though you possessed more than 2 though?

Anyway my question was serious before you distracted me with your Mantra.

I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Spiral

P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .