Mexican/Spanish colonial spear points

M ELEY · 21st July 2014, 01:33 AM

Wow, Jim! Incredible work! You are by far the most frequent enlightener when it comes to mystery things! I've often seen pole head types with the open seam and questioned how they could have effectively served as a weapon, being that they might wobble. Of course I had forgotten about a utilitarian usage for such. Many of these are listed as 'Mexican lance heads' and such throughout the net. Glad to have a difinitive answer, anyway.

Timo Nieminen · 21st July 2014, 01:58 AM

Open sockets can work for weapons, and for tools for heavy-duty cutting and chopping. However, an open socket isn't as strong, and the socket walls will need to be thicker, compared with a socket welded closed. Which will make the head heavier, which is not always desirable in a weapon. But open sockets are common enough on African spears, and Dark Ages European spears.

The relevant page, with picture: http://books.google.com/books?id=ASX...=PA87&lpg=PA87

One way to check whether a possible lance head is a weapon or a tool would be to test the hardness of the iron/steel. If it's hardened steel, it isn't an ox goad. Of course, some weapon heads weren't hardened steel, but good lance heads tend to be. Without actually testing the hardness, there can be clues: if it's made in two pieces, with a point welded on to a base and socket, there's a good chance it's a hard steel point and an iron base.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2014, 03:53 AM

Thanks so much Mark! I got lucky finding these and just thought I might find similar iron work in the blacksmith book which I haven't really had out for a long time. I do recall during research a while back it was considered the definitive book on the iron work of these regions especially New Mexico
The images are dead ringers for these.

machinist · 21st July 2014, 06:47 AM

This is deja vu all over again, my first thread here was about some "weapons" that turned out to be tools.
On one hand I am a little sad they are not spear points (except perhaps once in a while) but also thrilled to see the mystery solved.
Thank you all for your interest and work on this, I think Jim solved it and we can all feel good about an issue resolved.

Lee · 27th July 2014, 02:53 PM

Actually, I like them just as well in being old handforged agricultural implements as if they were lances or spears intended for hominids rather than taurines. I find it fascinating that 'cowboys' in Spain, Portugal and southern France still carry lances with which to direct their herds.

Revelatory threads such as this make the costs and frustrations of operating the forums worthwhile and fulfilling. Thank you all!

More typical in iron, here is a modern cast brass version of the distinctive type even today still used in the Camargue in southern France.

fernando · 27th July 2014, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

... I find it fascinating that 'cowboys' in Spain, Portugal and southern France still carry lances with which to direct their herds. ...More typical in iron, here is a modern cast brass version of the distinctive type even today still used in the Camargue in southern France.

The Portuguese version (pampilho) has a more linear point. I find it difficult to get a close up of the device ... here visible in a very dinamic posture of a 'Campino' riding his horse as if chasing a taurine, in a beautiful photo taken by Maurício Abreu ©.

.

fernando · 27th July 2014, 04:55 PM

This is still a misterious piece as, once posted in the forum, never reached a consensual opinion.
Assuming the visible distance between this thing and the example posted by machinist, i risk to say there is a slight resemblance

.
... The large diffterce going for the blunt edges.
.

21st July 2014, 01:58 AM	#2
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Open sockets can work for weapons, and for tools for heavy-duty cutting and chopping. However, an open socket isn't as strong, and the socket walls will need to be thicker, compared with a socket welded closed. Which will make the head heavier, which is not always desirable in a weapon. But open sockets are common enough on African spears, and Dark Ages European spears. The relevant page, with picture: http://books.google.com/books?id=ASX...=PA87&lpg=PA87 One way to check whether a possible lance head is a weapon or a tool would be to test the hardness of the iron/steel. If it's hardened steel, it isn't an ox goad. Of course, some weapon heads weren't hardened steel, but good lance heads tend to be. Without actually testing the hardness, there can be clues: if it's made in two pieces, with a point welded on to a base and socket, there's a good chance it's a hard steel point and an iron base. Last edited by Timo Nieminen; 21st July 2014 at 02:11 AM.

27th July 2014, 02:53 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 940	Very nice Actually, I like them just as well in being old handforged agricultural implements as if they were lances or spears intended for hominids rather than taurines. I find it fascinating that 'cowboys' in Spain, Portugal and southern France still carry lances with which to direct their herds. Revelatory threads such as this make the costs and frustrations of operating the forums worthwhile and fulfilling. Thank you all! More typical in iron, here is a modern cast brass version of the distinctive type even today still used in the Camargue in southern France. Attached Images

27th July 2014, 04:55 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thread highjacking This is still a misterious piece as, once posted in the forum, never reached a consensual opinion. Assuming the visible distance between this thing and the example posted by machinist, i risk to say there is a slight resemblance . ... The large diffterce going for the blunt edges. . Attached Images

21st July 2014, 01:33 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Wow, Jim! Incredible work! You are by far the most frequent enlightener when it comes to mystery things! I've often seen pole head types with the open seam and questioned how they could have effectively served as a weapon, being that they might wobble. Of course I had forgotten about a utilitarian usage for such. Many of these are listed as 'Mexican lance heads' and such throughout the net. Glad to have a difinitive answer, anyway.

21st July 2014, 03:53 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Thanks so much Mark! I got lucky finding these and just thought I might find similar iron work in the blacksmith book which I haven't really had out for a long time. I do recall during research a while back it was considered the definitive book on the iron work of these regions especially New Mexico The images are dead ringers for these.

21st July 2014, 06:47 AM	#4
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	This is deja vu all over again, my first thread here was about some "weapons" that turned out to be tools. On one hand I am a little sad they are not spear points (except perhaps once in a while) but also thrilled to see the mystery solved. Thank you all for your interest and work on this, I think Jim solved it and we can all feel good about an issue resolved.