A sail guard sword - blade for ID

Norman McCormick · 20th July 2014, 07:27 PM

Hi Fernando,
A great addition to your collection. Where do you put the ball and powder

. ??? It is just as well that Jasper has nailed it as I cannot find a similar example of the type anywhere and as you've no doubt gathered I've not seen one before. Are you going to do anything about the urn pommel and the ivory grip or are you going to put them down to period repairs and leave it like that? Great and unusual piece.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2014, 08:15 PM

As always Jaspers notations are well worth waiting for as noted,
But blast it!!!!

no arcanery!!! ???? oh well ,

Still, the puzzling thing remains on the inscription, what was behind the odd breaking up of names, words, and punctions between letters etc.
It looks more like the grammar structural lessons in English classes.

The grip still seems 18th century, but in my opinion leave it alone, it may well be a repair of later period and to my eye only adds historical dimension to the piece.

Thank you for posting this Fernando, and the research was fun and a good learning experience, always ready for the next adventure!!

M ELEY · 20th July 2014, 09:11 PM

Hi Fernando,
Per our discussion, I'm still apt to believe that a piece like yours (beautiful, BTW) might have seen later sea service. Ivory grips, while unpopular on dueling pieces, were common on naval swords, dirks, etc. The same argument goes for solid brass hilts (unpopular for cavalry and infantry due to slippage from blood runoff, but common on naval pieces). Prior to the late 18th century, when patterns began to develop in the navies of the world, an officer carried whatever he pleased. The shell motif is a tip of the hat to my notes on Annis (usage of nautical themes being popular with naval use). Likewise, we pinpointed that such swords did indeed go to sea, both as officer's preference and along with Spanish/Portuguese soldiers on the Treasure Fleets and otherwise. The fact that the grip was replaced with ivory or bone in the 18th could be an indication of naval use, specifically to identify 'officer status and rank', as so many of the later swords and dirks would in the following century. As a classic example (though English), please see Captain Philip Broke's (H.M.S. Shannon) 17th c. Scottish broadsword refitted with with ivory grips, per the style.

Jim, you are right about the curious markings on the German blade. As the blade is earlier, any chance these could be cabalistic in nature? Reminds me of some of those odd symbols and number patterns on Dutch blades?

fernando · 21st July 2014, 07:37 PM

Thank you all guys, for all that you have said.
The ivory grip being an issue i believe it is not a 'repair' or a 'replacement' in what it means changing something in bad shape for something new. I would call it a 'modification', in what it means to make it a more selective sword.
Assuming such operation didn't take place in the period, it certainly wasn't done much later ... or was; i see no visible signs of it, though.
I wouldn't reject at all Mark's perspective that, these modifications were commissioned to give the sword a more navy rank posture; which falls within the reasoning of Eduardo Nobre, from which book/collection i extracted and here upload two sail guard examples; one with the discussed scallop and the other with a fluted ivory grip.

.

Norman McCormick · 21st July 2014, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you all guys, for all that you have said.
The ivory grip being an issue i believe it is not a 'repair' or a 'replacement' in what it means changing something in bad shape for something new. I would call it a 'modification', in what it means to make it a more selective sword.
Assuming such operation didn't take place in the period, it certainly wasn't done much later ... or was; i see no visible signs of it, though.
I wouldn't reject at all Mark's perspective that, these modifications were commissioned to give the sword a more navy rank posture; which falls within the reasoning of Eduardo Nobre, from which book/collection i extracted and here upload two sail guard examples; one with the discussed scallop and the other with a fluted ivory grip.

.

Hi Fernando,
Fashion invariably influences all things, swords included. No reason to ignore the possibility that the grip was changed to bring the sword more up to date i.e. into the 18thC. Again if ivory grips were popular with naval personnel one cannot discount the possibility of it being changed for that reason. If a repair the cutler involved may have rehilted in the manner of the day. A number of circumstances may apply for the apparent change but regardless of which one the sword is interesting, unusual and a great addition to your collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 21st July 2014, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... A number of circumstances may apply for the apparent change but regardless of which one the sword is interesting, unusual and a great addition to your collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 22nd July 2014, 05:47 AM

Yes, Fernado, perhaps you should send it my way so I can carefully see if it fits in with my naval collection...for classification purposes only, I swear!

ulfberth · 22nd July 2014, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you all guys, for all that you have said.
The ivory grip being an issue i believe it is not a 'repair' or a 'replacement' in what it means changing something in bad shape for something new. I would call it a 'modification', in what it means to make it a more selective sword.
Assuming such operation didn't take place in the period, it certainly wasn't done much later ... or was; i see no visible signs of it, though.
I wouldn't reject at all Mark's perspective that, these modifications were commissioned to give the sword a more navy rank posture; which falls within the reasoning of Eduardo Nobre, from which book/collection i extracted and here upload two sail guard examples; one with the discussed scallop and the other with a fluted ivory grip.

.

Fernando,

you post pictures of beautiful swords, these type's are elegant in their simplicity and real pure forms !

Kind regards

Dirk

21st July 2014, 07:37 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you all guys, for all that you have said. The ivory grip being an issue i believe it is not a 'repair' or a 'replacement' in what it means changing something in bad shape for something new. I would call it a 'modification', in what it means to make it a more selective sword. Assuming such operation didn't take place in the period, it certainly wasn't done much later ... or was; i see no visible signs of it, though. I wouldn't reject at all Mark's perspective that, these modifications were commissioned to give the sword a more navy rank posture; which falls within the reasoning of Eduardo Nobre, from which book/collection i extracted and here upload two sail guard examples; one with the discussed scallop and the other with a fluted ivory grip. . Attached Images

20th July 2014, 07:27 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, A great addition to your collection. Where do you put the ball and powder . ??? It is just as well that Jasper has nailed it as I cannot find a similar example of the type anywhere and as you've no doubt gathered I've not seen one before. Are you going to do anything about the urn pommel and the ivory grip or are you going to put them down to period repairs and leave it like that? Great and unusual piece. My Regards, Norman.

20th July 2014, 08:15 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	As always Jaspers notations are well worth waiting for as noted, But blast it!!!! no arcanery!!! ???? oh well , Still, the puzzling thing remains on the inscription, what was behind the odd breaking up of names, words, and punctions between letters etc. It looks more like the grammar structural lessons in English classes. The grip still seems 18th century, but in my opinion leave it alone, it may well be a repair of later period and to my eye only adds historical dimension to the piece. Thank you for posting this Fernando, and the research was fun and a good learning experience, always ready for the next adventure!!

20th July 2014, 09:11 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hi Fernando, Per our discussion, I'm still apt to believe that a piece like yours (beautiful, BTW) might have seen later sea service. Ivory grips, while unpopular on dueling pieces, were common on naval swords, dirks, etc. The same argument goes for solid brass hilts (unpopular for cavalry and infantry due to slippage from blood runoff, but common on naval pieces). Prior to the late 18th century, when patterns began to develop in the navies of the world, an officer carried whatever he pleased. The shell motif is a tip of the hat to my notes on Annis (usage of nautical themes being popular with naval use). Likewise, we pinpointed that such swords did indeed go to sea, both as officer's preference and along with Spanish/Portuguese soldiers on the Treasure Fleets and otherwise. The fact that the grip was replaced with ivory or bone in the 18th could be an indication of naval use, specifically to identify 'officer status and rank', as so many of the later swords and dirks would in the following century. As a classic example (though English), please see Captain Philip Broke's (H.M.S. Shannon) 17th c. Scottish broadsword refitted with with ivory grips, per the style. Jim, you are right about the curious markings on the German blade. As the blade is earlier, any chance these could be cabalistic in nature? Reminds me of some of those odd symbols and number patterns on Dutch blades?

22nd July 2014, 05:47 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, Fernado, perhaps you should send it my way so I can carefully see if it fits in with my naval collection...for classification purposes only, I swear!