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18th July 2014, 08:31 PM
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Keris forum moderator
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19th July 2014, 10:01 AM
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#2 | |
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No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia, As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God....  }Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian. I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well... It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though. Spiral  . 
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20th July 2014, 09:25 AM
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#3 | |
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Note the two other indicators of national recognition of the dynastic rule invented at the time of Said bin Sultan..ruled 1804 til 1856 who moved the capital on Oman to Zanzibar ~and worn here by Tippu Tib.. The royal turban and the royal khanjar. Zanzibar thence became an important hub and the fact based on the slave trade controlled from there is too inviting to ignore as to the linkage from Omani Kattara to the Omani Dancing sword and the transfer of hilts to the Iconic dancing style...for pageants and dancing...only. |
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21st July 2014, 11:07 AM
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#4 |
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I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.
Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword? How do you perceive the connection? Spiral |
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21st July 2014, 07:34 PM
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#5 |
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Salaams All, From time a revue or summary of structures allows clarity, focus, and direction and directs readers at the supporting posts and so that their research may be enhanced. I place the following for that purpose in respect of The Omani Dancing Sword.
Introduction. The ensemble of Omani Swords comprises in order of oldest first as under; 1. The Omani Battle Sword AKA Sayf Al Yamaani. 2. The Omani Kattara. 3. The Omani Sayf (Sayf); The dancing sword. *4. The Omani Shamshiir. Placed 4th but the date of its inauguration may place it as older that some of the swords above I place it here with an asterisk. . for later closer analysis date wise. In order to address the complex questions which inevitably arise out of the contentious issue involving Omani swords and their peculiar provenance I place a summary of investigation so far on the details and influences that bring us to this point in proceedings and to remind readers that prior to these considerations Forum had very scant material to hand and thus at present Library is well served by the now vast amount of material to hand. For the complete story the following need to be read since there is the inevitable interlinking through history of forms 1, 2 and 3 above and to which I add TVVs fine introduction to the problem in his Kattara for Comments. Thus the threads to study are: 1. Kattara for comments. 2. The Old Omani Battle Sword. 3. The Omani Dancing Sword. 4. The Omani Kattara. 5. The Omani Shamshiir. The issue. The main bones of contention are understandable…The fact is that the Omani Dancing sword looks warlike … as warlike now as it did to the few Europeans who reported upon seeing it in the early 19th C. The fact that out there in the world abroad there are many Omani looking swords of dance with stiff blades which must therefore have been for fighting or fighting and dancing…or were they? Thus to assist members in this fog I propose the following broad based summary so that the issue may be clearer..This is not the final proof nor does it comprise the silver bullet solution but offers comprehensive discussion and details which though it does not point to a check mate does point the finger at probable cause… Maybe we will never produce the absolute answer… I would be amazed if we did since that is often the nature of Ethnographic research as is the time honoured technique of creating a possible theory based on what we are seeing countered by other well thought out and researched alternative proposals occasionally presented on a pretty warmed up cauldron of well meaning sparks and the occasional flame on the anvil of Forum discussion…i.e. If you think you know another cause lets hear it ! I list a number of topics that I have ventured into concerning Omani swords which on their own assume notes of interest but when grouped together offer a compendium of potential evidence, though, without absolute proof but which are the essence of the detail amassed in this regard. The Omani Dancing Sword . AKA The Omani Sayf (Saif) “Between 1744 and perhaps about 1810 this sword was designed as a heraldic dynasty and salutation sword carried by all Palace Guards or Askeris in Oman. The hilt is identical to the single edged Omani Kattara but the blade is flexible and spatulate tipped for its main role in The Traditions… It has continued in that role with the same Dynasty since its design until today. No battle has been identified in which it was used to fight with”. Because of some enterprising souk merchants who from 1970 (when Oman emerged from the virtual dark ages) swords with stiff blades have appeared as rehilts in various souks but mainly at Mutrah where it is estimated that in over 40 years thousands have been sold to tourists and which have somewhat corrupted collections all over the world.. To support this statement I offer the following documented information viewable at the threads above for inspection summarized as follows viz; The 10 Point Summary. The Omani Dancing Sword. 1. This straight flexible sword whose hilt was designed from the curved Kattara was given the privilege of being accompanied by the Terrs Shield usually carried into battle with the Old Omani Battle Sword...It was sharp on both edges and round tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with its forerunner; The Omani Battle Sword (the two have been compared favourably at thread.) Its purpose was for pageantry and Dynastic Salutation only. Not for fighting. 2. A newspaper report by a sword maker in Ras Al Khaimer delved into the question of fighting with this sword and in a comprehensive column totally refuted the point… Neither was there any reaction by local sword or history experts concerning the report; for good reason perhaps? In no museum is the sword refered to as a Battle Sword...and in the Al Ain collection of Arab "weapons" it does not appear. 3. The vast and informative but almost unrecognised in ethnographic circles, Funun, a genre of pageant, dance and battle re-enactment pantomime forming the unwritten, handed down traditions vital to the study of Omani history and swords...and seen as a complete works at thread...This entire genre is completely foreign to normal researchers abroad who too often miss its importance. The dancing sword is The Funun instrument of Dynastic salutation… The two are inexorably linked. 4. In respect of the Zanzibar situation The slave trade, and the link to The Slavers Sword...much has been investigated including the important notes from H. Ingrams the secretary to the Ruler at Zanzibar and the significance of the Manga (Omani) dancers and their dancing swords opposed to the African and native Zanzibari equipment. In parallel to that it has been suggested that the Kattara originated in central Africa perhaps influenced by the Mendingo but anyway the long Omani Hilt appears to have been technically transferred to the new dancing sword … and may thus have been introduced via Zanzibar. 5. The manufacturing link of the Zutoot and other centres such as Nizwa, Sanau, Muscat...It is recorded that the wandering Gypsy of Oman who were a mixed Gypsy traveling people from probably the North West Frontier of India now incorporated into Omani tribes but entirely wandering in nature prior to 1970…who made dancing swords on Commission…Nowhere in the transcripts is there actual evidence of European trade blades linked to the dancing sword however the application of fullers may be a European aspect overlooked. I have no evidence of dancing swords carrying European markings... unlike the trade blades that made up the curved Omani Kattara situation which were virtually all European. If the Omani leadership wanted a dual purpose weapon / dancer why would they not perhaps simply have evolved the curved Kattara into that role ? 6. The strong influence of Said bin Sultan to whom the finger points as the motivator behind the dancing sword as Heraldic and Pageant. It was this ruler … during his reign who saw the introduction of several other iconic items worn in honour of the dynasty …viz The Royal Khanjar and the Royal Turban. The Royal Khanjar or the royal Hilt more correctly is also echoed in the same hilt being allocated to the Old Omani Battle Sword perhaps this is the third example during his reign of this kind of recognition… Could it be that the fourth is the adoption of the Omani Sayf; The Omani Dancing Sword with its very flexible blade for Pageants and Heraldic dynastic salutation. 7. Great care has been taken to identify the rehilting situation since 1970 till today prevalent in Mutrah Souk and responsible for several thousand swords drifting out to world collectors. It can be seen at thread where these originated and that because they have stiff blades they conveniently sidestepped local buyers because they cannot be buzzed in the air … a precondition for dancing swords… and because they appear from 1970 could hardly have been used here in 19th C battles…in Oman. These are Ethiopian blades and clearly identified on thread… 8. The mimic fight.. This has thrown more people than most things with this sword… The mimic fight is explained at thread and isn’t a fight but a one point scoring contest where the single winning point is won by touching the thumb of the opponents shield hand…end of contest. This is made possible by the flexible sword having a flat spatulate tip…Mimic fighting was not a bad way for guards to keep fit requiring dexterity, speed, balance and agility…It is part of the Funun. 9. The demise of blades owing to gunpowder. It is interesting that gunpowder eroded swords and spears but didn’t affect the dancing sword…why? The thread continues to examine its other employment not as a fighting sword but in its guard role as a Dynasty marker … supporter of the ruling Sultan and anchored in the traditions in the special genre reserved to honour the swordsmen of history. That is why it never vanished as did the spear and largely the Old Omani Battle sword though it survived being honoured with a royal hilt. 10. The Omani dancing sword is a weak bladed very flexible flat sword… It is no match for a hefty battle sword… It bends easily through 90 degrees and would be quickly overcome by a proper thick stiffer blade…The thread refers to Guards that carried it and in one sketch their spears and abu futtila … the real killers can be seen… but it is in what we do not see that is also important,… The Fort armouries with dozens of Old Omani Battle Swords for issue in time of strife… The guards duties which included pageantry and salutations meant they needed to have available their parade swords at all times… The Omani Dancing Sword filled that bill did it not? Conclusion; The finger of suspicion as to who brought on the design of sword known as The Omani Dancing Sword may be leveled at Said Bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856 and thread identifies how he or his reign brought about other dynastic items. This pushes back the potential date of inauguration to after 1804…and it is further possible that the diffusion from palace guards to general population may also be later…date unspecified as yet. This is unchartered territory but under scrutiny…The National Museum which specializes in the Rule of Said bin Sultan may have some light to throw…and I shall endeavor to press them on the subject. It could be, however, that the First ruler in this Dynasty who was an Immam was initially its instigator in about 1744...which also makes sense since it is a Dynastic Sword. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st July 2014 at 08:57 PM. |
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22nd July 2014, 06:37 PM
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#6 | |
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Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers. Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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22nd July 2014, 06:50 PM
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#7 |
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Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...
Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword. Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~ " The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way". Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)... Thus I show the Mwarcha Zanzibari dance below to compare swords, dress, style and tribal differences.etc. with the more regimented straight line formal salutation and dance of the Omani style with dancing swords and shields. Dress is quite formal including Khanjar. Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 22nd July 2014 at 08:30 PM. |
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22nd July 2014, 10:02 PM
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#8 | ||
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Greeting Ibrahim... As interesting as Ingrams quote is, you forgot to post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. Quote:
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25th July 2014, 04:31 PM
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#9 | |
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So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing. Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword" Where does that leave us? spiral |
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22nd July 2014, 09:18 PM
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#10 | ||
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I am aware of the modern fake Oman swords sold by some Omani websites & the fakes you have posted pictures of. I though you possessed more than 2 though? Anyway my question was serious before you distracted me with your Mantra. I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 } Spiral P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested . Last edited by spiral; 22nd July 2014 at 09:40 PM. |
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