A sail guard sword - blade for ID

ulfberth · 16th July 2014, 03:52 PM

Hi Fernando,

that's is a very elegant rapier you got there, I like the Spanish type of rapiers to especially the cup hilts, yours is even more rare with the sale guard.

I think that the Spanish sword are amongst the most underestimated swords and over here they are not as popular as the espada ropera's.

There were two simular ones in the last auction of HH, they were discribed as 18th century one's.
Looking at the metal and the way it is made in my opinion yours is 17th century.

kind regards

Ulfberth

fernando · 16th July 2014, 11:56 PM

Thank you so much for your input, Jim.
Indeed the vieira (shell-scallop) became Santiago pilgrims symbol since the middle ages, but eventualy Portuguese King Dom João V (1706-1750) was also fond of it, in a manner that firearms trigger guards, for one, were often made with such shape. This to say that the shell in this sword guard doesn't necessarily attribut it a specific provenance. I also guess (without thorough consultation) that the vieira in Spain is more a regional adornment (Galiza) than Spanish in general.
On the other hand if i were to fully trust Eduardo Nobre in his work AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES, i would assume without a doubt that these examples with the shell are surely Portuguese, as he quotes in one of these in his book, dating them form the end XVII century.
I have faith that the inscription lettering makes some sense, other than a symbolism setup, arcane and acrostic, as you put it in fine words

. I already burnt my eyelashes trying to figure out its contents but, so far, i go no further than guessing that the lettering on the right face would be Berchausen or Berghausen; but browsing on these names as sword smiths i came to no result ... as probably i am way out of reality.
In any case i follow your in the assumption that this is a German blade from the XVII century. I have also seen that 'stylized' letter E in German blades.
I still trust that one of our experienced members, Jasper for one, comes in with a solution

.

.

fernando · 17th July 2014, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Fernando,
that's is a very elegant rapier you got there, I like the Spanish type of rapiers to especially the cup hilts, yours is even more rare with the sale guard.
I think that the Spanish sword are amongst the most underestimated swords and over here they are not as popular as the espada ropera's.
There were two simular ones in the last auction of HH, they were discribed as 18th century one's.
Looking at the metal and the way it is made in my opinion yours is 17th century.
kind regards
Ulfberth

Thank you for your words Dirk. Indeed sail guard swords are rare. I hope you keep your opinion if they are Portuguese

.

ulfberth · 17th July 2014, 06:50 AM

my opinion does not change, Spanish or Portuguese.
These two are often seen as one and were one for a while and their swords are in the same style, let's just say i like'm both

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2014, 06:20 PM

I always seem to neglect combining the obvious closeness in these sword forms as to Portuguese as well as Spanish, Nando. I try to defer from the use of the term Iberian as I know it sort of annoys you

In many cases it seems indiscernible without specific marks or inscriptions, but in both cases I have only the highest regard for these fascinating arms in either instance, as you know.

I always am so grateful for the notes you share out of these references such as the fine work of Mr. Nobre as these references are quite little known in the scope of published arms material. I agree there may be a degree of regional preference with use of the scallop shell in decoration, but it seems widely diffused overall as these are even quite notable among many espada anchas in New Spain. Since the symbolism is of course certainly and profoundly associated in the Catholic Faith it seems understandable that it may be widely used in many contexts.

Im right with you on these strange, arcane arrangements of letters, and I spent hours going through Wallace Collection and others. The use of interpolation of occult or arcane symbols within these groupings of letters as well as in inscriptions or names seems to have been a trend from Italy an Spain picked up on by innovative German smiths as well. It seems that these groupings in most cases I found are repetitive, one case had for example the letter 'M' repeated five times. With that considered, it seems quite possible that numerology could be in place, but of course those speculations are far beyond any hope for confirmation.

The thing with such arcane symbolism and its inherent secrecy is that obviously there is no documentation which would explain it, and the known meanings intended at the time were lost as those using them passed .

The best hope we have is that cross instances might be discovered which might reflect some consistency with other detail and clues. Here I would join you in hoping that Jasper will come in on this as his experience with these arms is remarkable.

Terry K · 18th July 2014, 01:47 PM

Very nice looking piece Fernando!

Being so light I bet it would handle nicely.

Terry

fernando · 18th July 2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry K

Very nice looking piece Fernando!

Being so light I bet it would handle nicely.

Terry

Thank you Terry

Yes, the 'featherweight' feeling is due both to the guard bowl not being a full cup but a reduced 'sail', together with a slim and relatively short blade ... rather pointy, by the way. With a point of balance so close from the guard, you may call this rapier sword a great tool for a fencer

.

fernando · 18th July 2014, 04:46 PM

Great wisdom, Jim and rather comprehensive observations on the shell wide influence as a symbol, namely its presence in the Espada Ancha, one of your beloved favorites

.
In trying to go further into deciphering the inscription, i found i have negleted a little but maybe important detail in identifying the maker's mark; an O circumference/letter/digit on the forte. As it only appears on the right face of the blade, with no counterpart on the left side, i assume it is an intentional mark and not an 'arcane' symbol.

.

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2014, 05:29 PM

Thank you so much Nando. Actually as I further continued my research on these mysterious letter grouping I found that such combinations were widely present in Italian blades, usually in repetitive groups of letters in linear fashion and often reversed or changed in the same combination on the other side. It seems with these, the idea of an acrostic would be defeated, though anagram tenuously remains. Even the idea of numeric equivilents would be compromised with these varying arrangements, so at this point we can only continue speculation.
As you point out, the 'O' seems strategically placed so most interesting. I know that on blades in India symbols and other devices seem to be placed in strategic places on blades, of course still unproven, but perhaps to strengthen at least in concept, that particular part of the blade.

It does seem clear that while arcane symbols are sometimes interpolated amid regular capital letters, it is curious as to which letters are selected to be redesigned. If only we could imagine what these guys were thinking!

cornelistromp · 19th July 2014, 09:01 AM

beautiful sword, swords with a boat-shell guard a variation on Norman type 91 occurred between 1630 and 1650 in Western Europe. see, for example, a self portait of Rembrandt with Saskia from 1634.
The pommel is norman type 64 and can be dated around 1630, this corresponds perfectly to the rest.
When I read the text right here; Pedro (Peter) Tesche Berghausen.
Peter Tesche worked as a bladesmith in Solingen in the first half of the 17th century. whether this is actually made by him, and if there is a connection with the place Berghausen in Germany, unfortunately I can not tell you.
the handle of ivory is a subsequent restoration, it is actually too slippery to function.

very beautiful and rare type!

best,
Jasper

16th July 2014, 11:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for your input, Jim. Indeed the vieira (shell-scallop) became Santiago pilgrims symbol since the middle ages, but eventualy Portuguese King Dom João V (1706-1750) was also fond of it, in a manner that firearms trigger guards, for one, were often made with such shape. This to say that the shell in this sword guard doesn't necessarily attribut it a specific provenance. I also guess (without thorough consultation) that the vieira in Spain is more a regional adornment (Galiza) than Spanish in general. On the other hand if i were to fully trust Eduardo Nobre in his work AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES, i would assume without a doubt that these examples with the shell are surely Portuguese, as he quotes in one of these in his book, dating them form the end XVII century. I have faith that the inscription lettering makes some sense, other than a symbolism setup, arcane and acrostic, as you put it in fine words . I already burnt my eyelashes trying to figure out its contents but, so far, i go no further than guessing that the lettering on the right face would be Berchausen or Berghausen; but browsing on these names as sword smiths i came to no result ... as probably i am way out of reality. In any case i follow your in the assumption that this is a German blade from the XVII century. I have also seen that 'stylized' letter E in German blades. I still trust that one of our experienced members, Jasper for one, comes in with a solution . . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 17th July 2014 at 10:05 AM.

18th July 2014, 04:46 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great wisdom, Jim and rather comprehensive observations on the shell wide influence as a symbol, namely its presence in the Espada Ancha, one of your beloved favorites . In trying to go further into deciphering the inscription, i found i have negleted a little but maybe important detail in identifying the maker's mark; an O circumference/letter/digit on the forte. As it only appears on the right face of the blade, with no counterpart on the left side, i assume it is an intentional mark and not an 'arcane' symbol. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 18th July 2014 at 05:21 PM.

19th July 2014, 09:01 AM	#10
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	beautiful sword, swords with a boat-shell guard a variation on Norman type 91 occurred between 1630 and 1650 in Western Europe. see, for example, a self portait of Rembrandt with Saskia from 1634. The pommel is norman type 64 and can be dated around 1630, this corresponds perfectly to the rest. When I read the text right here; Pedro (Peter) Tesche Berghausen. Peter Tesche worked as a bladesmith in Solingen in the first half of the 17th century. whether this is actually made by him, and if there is a connection with the place Berghausen in Germany, unfortunately I can not tell you. the handle of ivory is a subsequent restoration, it is actually too slippery to function. very beautiful and rare type! best, Jasper Attached Images

16th July 2014, 03:52 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 439	Hi Fernando, that's is a very elegant rapier you got there, I like the Spanish type of rapiers to especially the cup hilts, yours is even more rare with the sale guard. I think that the Spanish sword are amongst the most underestimated swords and over here they are not as popular as the espada ropera's. There were two simular ones in the last auction of HH, they were discribed as 18th century one's. Looking at the metal and the way it is made in my opinion yours is 17th century. kind regards Ulfberth

17th July 2014, 06:50 AM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 439	my opinion does not change, Spanish or Portuguese. These two are often seen as one and were one for a while and their swords are in the same style, let's just say i like'm both

17th July 2014, 06:20 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,662	I always seem to neglect combining the obvious closeness in these sword forms as to Portuguese as well as Spanish, Nando. I try to defer from the use of the term Iberian as I know it sort of annoys you In many cases it seems indiscernible without specific marks or inscriptions, but in both cases I have only the highest regard for these fascinating arms in either instance, as you know. I always am so grateful for the notes you share out of these references such as the fine work of Mr. Nobre as these references are quite little known in the scope of published arms material. I agree there may be a degree of regional preference with use of the scallop shell in decoration, but it seems widely diffused overall as these are even quite notable among many espada anchas in New Spain. Since the symbolism is of course certainly and profoundly associated in the Catholic Faith it seems understandable that it may be widely used in many contexts. Im right with you on these strange, arcane arrangements of letters, and I spent hours going through Wallace Collection and others. The use of interpolation of occult or arcane symbols within these groupings of letters as well as in inscriptions or names seems to have been a trend from Italy an Spain picked up on by innovative German smiths as well. It seems that these groupings in most cases I found are repetitive, one case had for example the letter 'M' repeated five times. With that considered, it seems quite possible that numerology could be in place, but of course those speculations are far beyond any hope for confirmation. The thing with such arcane symbolism and its inherent secrecy is that obviously there is no documentation which would explain it, and the known meanings intended at the time were lost as those using them passed . The best hope we have is that cross instances might be discovered which might reflect some consistency with other detail and clues. Here I would join you in hoping that Jasper will come in on this as his experience with these arms is remarkable.

18th July 2014, 01:47 PM	#6
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	Very nice looking piece Fernando! Being so light I bet it would handle nicely. Terry

18th July 2014, 05:29 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,662	Thank you so much Nando. Actually as I further continued my research on these mysterious letter grouping I found that such combinations were widely present in Italian blades, usually in repetitive groups of letters in linear fashion and often reversed or changed in the same combination on the other side. It seems with these, the idea of an acrostic would be defeated, though anagram tenuously remains. Even the idea of numeric equivilents would be compromised with these varying arrangements, so at this point we can only continue speculation. As you point out, the 'O' seems strategically placed so most interesting. I know that on blades in India symbols and other devices seem to be placed in strategic places on blades, of course still unproven, but perhaps to strengthen at least in concept, that particular part of the blade. It does seem clear that while arcane symbols are sometimes interpolated amid regular capital letters, it is curious as to which letters are selected to be redesigned. If only we could imagine what these guys were thinking!