The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business perhaps?...Below is another enactment where the participants chuck the sword as high as they can and catch it by the hilt cleanly before it strikes the ground..Doing this with stiff blades would indeed be dangerous...as would be the mock fight and I have not noticed a lot of thumbless Omani men walking about...or worse still lots of dead performers...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business...

(Note the quotation marks.)

I "request" you resist the urge to continue debating in this fashion.

The alternative will result in consequences including, but not limited to, closing of this thread.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Below is another enactment where the participants chuck the sword as high as they can and catch it by the hilt cleanly before it strikes the ground..Doing this with stiff blades would indeed be dangerous...as would be the mock fight and I have not noticed a lot of thumbless Omani men walking about...or worse still lots of dead performers...

The "chucking" of swords in to the air and catching them has been done in many cultures with real swords. Many take it a step further and juggle them without injury.

Based on several quoted texts of old, the description of these swords describe them as being fine and razor sharp cutting edges so I do fail to see how doing this with stiff blades would be any more dangerous than a blade with bend to it, especially IF a bendy blade had these qualities.
A bend in the blade is not active in any manner of "chucking" a sword straight in to the air, it is the edges one must be concerned with, not bends.

For the mock fighting, the same can be said, why were the swords ever credited with being such high quality and razor sharp swords than can nearly hew a man in two, it serves no point in these acts is it is only to be danced with, why would one add danger to their lives and risk loosing a thumb as you say.

Like any act, which the dancing and mock fighting it, it is an act only, it can be done with the sharped or dullest swords.

Neither of these points you make add to the fact that the swords were not fighting swords...in fact they do in ways support the swords were able to be fought with.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

The "chucking" of swords in to the air and catching them has been done in many cultures with real swords. Many take it a step further and juggle them without injury.

Based on several quoted texts of old, the description of these swords describe them as being fine and razor sharp cutting edges so I do fail to see how doing this with stiff blades would be any more dangerous than a blade with bend to it, especially IF a bendy blade had these qualities.
A bend in the blade is not active in any manner of "chucking" a sword straight in to the air, it is the edges one must be concerned with, not bends.

For the mock fighting, the same can be said, why were the swords ever credited with being such high quality and razor sharp swords than can nearly hew a man in two, it serves no point in these acts is it is only to be danced with, why would one add danger to their lives and risk loosing a thumb as you say.

Like any act, which the dancing and mock fighting it, it is an act only, it can be done with the sharped or dullest swords.

Neither of these points you make add to the fact that the swords were not fighting swords...in fact they do in ways support the swords were able to be fought with.

Oh well ..I thought I would add that in support of them being useless for fighting...hugely bendy flat round spatulate tips (not on a stiiff blade they are pretty pathetic as fighting sword...The razor sharpness is a traditional detail copied off the Omani Battle Sword. I can see how outsiders look at this thing... and I have documented about half a dozen visitors who have spouted off about this amazing two handed chop em in half battle sword capable of hewing down or cutting off limbs ...Welstead and the others were hoodwinked. Now the weapon that did the business was of course The Omani Battle Sword...Not the Heraldic Dynasty Dancing Sword ... but that to one side since your point is not with the flexibility of the dancing blade but with the stiff bladed variant which came out of Ethiopia. There is a huge difference.

What compounds the arguement in addition to the mistaken remarks of the earlier visitors is the flexibility of many other swords... I believe the swordmaker from the Shotley Bridge sword company took one of his blades coiled up in his top hat to a sales meeting and unleashed it to astonished guests. I know another sword I think from the Sahara which wraps into a coil and is used like a lashing whip...I understand the concept...but that is not what this sword is about...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business perhaps?...

Another out of place and unfounded cheap shot.

The audacity of such a comment with its poor, inflaming and unfounded intent adds nothing but takes away a lot...but not from me.

[Gavin Nugent]

Would someone who is savy with creating a video for youtube please write me privately.
Anyone who is savy in test cutting too would be helpful.

With thanks

[kahnjar1]

Originally posted at #76 of the Forts and Cannon of Oman thread which is now closed, Ibrahiim has stated that the so called Dancing sword was "brought on and expanded into the population from the palace guards".
My question is this: WHY WOULD YOU GUARD A PALACE WITH A DANCING SWORD?
A sensible reply would be appreciated.

[Ian]

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ian

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

Salaams Ian, Actually it's not just horse guards ... The Entire British and many foreign armed forces of whatever branch Army, Navy, Airforce have Guards some of whom carry swords..and which ...though they would never be involved in a Battle are used in saluting etc...and even used at military weddings...quite a parallel with the Omani dancing sword.

A note on heraldry as it is likely that the Heraldic Society would never accept the terminology but it fits in general; The current Dynasty commenced very roughly in about 1744...and the Dancing Sword was concocted at that time or shortly therafter, thus, I term it Heraldic~Dynastic. To salute the monarch and conduct the traditions or Funun...until today. It had to be extremely flexible but was also razor sharp and spatulate tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with another weapon upon which it was largely designed; The Omani Battle Sword. See thread on that please.

I have compared the Dancing Sword with the Omani Batle Sword but the new part of the design was the long Omani Hilt taken from the Omani curved Kattara (see that thread please) which was a slave captains sword and Merchants Sword acting both as a badge of office and a defensive weapon/punishment item.

I have searched high and low ... but no evidence exists anywhere of any battle in which the dancing sword may have been used and when you see the blade it is pretty clear why... It is not a battle blade and is weak and very flexible... thus excellent as a safe sword to buzz at march pasts and pageantry. The killer sword in the Oman armoury has always been the Omani Battle Sword which could take a mans leg off but is stiff and configured differently in the hilt...

The late Anthony North expounded on the now well known theory of retaining a weapon that worked... That is the case here... The ancient Old Omani Battle Sword is honoured from about the mid 19th C with a replacement Royal Hilt which can be seen today~ even carried by the Ruler although any man can wear it...And most of them do! though at the time when it was inaugurated the population was by comparison much smaller and it permeated across the population rather than exploded but would have spread in popularity steadily..via the Palace and religious guards...

The very important functions handed over at the beginning of this Dynasty were from the Old Omani Battle Sword to the new dancing sword...including the buckler shield; as I say... in honour and for Pageant and Salutations...but not the fighting function.

Since 1970 masses of Ethiopian straight stiff blades have been expertly rehilted on Omani Longhilts and Omani Scabbards in Muttrah Souk Muscat having been imported via Yemen from Ethiopia...often made in Germany. These are not original Omani fighting swords but classed as Tourist items.

That is the point of the discussion.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

The example I'd be interested to see which I don't think I have yet in this thread or the other discussions about this type, would be a dated late 18th or early 19th century dance/parade sword. I've seen plenty of the more recent ones with flexible blades, but not a dated older one.

[Sancar]

Ibrahim, I'd like to adsk about the last photo with two swords in your last post. Are they also "dancing swords"? Are the form of hilts and blades of those swords specific only to the dancing swords? Because I remember seeing the exact same shaped sword in Istanbul Military Museum. It was a Memlük sword; belonged to a Memlük sultan if I remember correctly and it was definitely for battle.

I'm desperately searching for photos right now. But I am 100% positive it was very very similar to the swords in your photo.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ian

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

I think the point here that people are arguing about is Ibrahim states that all solid bladed straight kattara with the typical Omani style hilt. {Not the all metal one.} are fake. {He believes only the curved ones ar for fighting.}

That all swords of that type should have very bendy blades & just be used for dancing. {since around 1774!}

But the modern copies he shows & the information he pronounces as gospel, that comes from the fakers of modern day marriages look like the copies they are.

But to malign every stiff bladed kattara ever sold or collected in the west {excepting the all metal hilts.} as fake, without substantiating it is wrong.

To say non of these swords were ever used in battle is wrong.

To say the sword was not very important unlike spears or guns after C.1744 is also wrong.

IMHO

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

I think the point here that people are arguing about is Ibrahim states that all solid bladed straight kattara with the typical Omani style hilt. {Not the all metal one.} are fake. {He believes only the curved ones ar for fighting.}

That all swords of that type should have very bendy blades & just be used for dancing. {since around 1774!}

But the modern copies he shows & the information he pronounces as gospel, that comes from the fakers of modern day marriages look like the copies they are.

But to malign every stiff bladed kattara ever sold or collected in the west {excepting the all metal hilts.} as fake, without substantiating it is wrong.

To say non of these swords were ever used in battle is wrong.

To say the sword was not very important unlike spears or guns after C.1744 is also wrong.

IMHO

Spiral

Please note;In order to help you differentiate the 3 swords I have placed above the pictures at #135. There's~

1.The Old Omani Battle Sword. Battle Sword. Straight and stiff.
2.The Curved Kattara. Merchant and Slavers Sword. Curved. Quite rigid..
3.The Omani Dancing Sword. Pageants and Salutations ...The Dynastic Item...Dynasty started 1744 but sword would have taken time to promote perhaps 15 years. Straight and very flexible.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Originally posted at #76 of the Forts and Cannon of Oman thread which is now closed, Ibrahiim has stated that the so called Dancing sword was "brought on and expanded into the population from the palace guards".
My question is this: WHY WOULD YOU GUARD A PALACE WITH A DANCING SWORD?
A sensible reply would be appreciated.

Salaams ~
Thank you for the question... I prepared the answer yesterday... As you know Palace Guards or Askeris were armed substantially with Khanjar, Spear and the long gun... The Abu Futtilla. The dancing sword when carried (and terrs) were ceremonial . A large slice of a Guards daily program would have been to do with pageantry... and salutation...actually not altogether removed from ceremonial guard duty today. Pageantry includes the mock fight which is incorporated into the Funun...and which would form a good workout as each man took his turn...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.