THE OLDEST KNOWN YATAGHAN!!!!

Emanuel · 10th July 2014, 02:55 PM

Hello,

There is the blade manufacturer, and the blade decorator. Was Ahmet Tekelu's workshop decorating or forging the blades?

I am waiting for permission to post a picture of what looks like an identical yataghan without the decorations, from the collection of the Madrid Royal Armoury.

Incidentally, I am still searching for images of early yataghan from the Siege of Vienna, without any luck.

Emanuel

spiral · 10th July 2014, 07:31 PM

What stunningly beautiful work.....

Spiral

Sancar · 10th July 2014, 10:48 PM

The yatağan in the Topkapi Palace armoury has signature on its back (Work of Ahmet Tekeli). Ahmet Tekeli, member of the court jewelers organisation is also mentioned several times in Court payroll record books (books of Ehl-i Hiref) of Kanuni Suleiman's era. One example lists the presents given by Suleiman Khan, for Ramadan Festival to court jeweler and koftgari master Ahmet Tekeli(3000 coins and a kaftan with spots). Ottoman court is famously very obsessive about keeping records of every small detail.

And , I believe Ahmet Tekeli is the decorator of these blades, not the bladesmith.

ariel · 11th July 2014, 03:09 AM

Thanks Sancar!

Martin Lubojacky · 11th July 2014, 05:43 PM

Enclosed please find some Ottoman and maybe Seljuk dragon and phoenix (and similar) motives. I would say floral motives are very typical Ottoman motives for "newer" weapons (??18th, 19th century). I am also enclosing two pictures from the book Sultanlarin silahlari by Hilmi Aydin and on this occasion I would like to ask Sancar, why the author calls the weapon "hançer", and not "yatağan" ?
Regards,
Martin

Sancar · 12th July 2014, 05:41 AM

I personally find Hilmi Aydın's book not a very good source. I have the same book and I only use it for its pictures. Because he makes lots and lots of mistakes, misreadings of Ottoman Turkish scripts, misjudgements about origins of weaponry and terminology. Also, existing arms and armour terminology is not as clear cut as European counterpart(due to lack of interest in art history and archeology community in Turkey about arms and armour studies; most of my professors did not even consider it as a subject of study) Aydın must have made that mistake because of the shortness of the blade relative to later longer yataghans.

There is a Timurid period yataghan in display in Topkapı armoury about same blade length and shape with the Ahmet Tekeli yataghan, with a earless jade handle(which might be a later addition) That yataghan is older than Kanuni ones, even maybe older than Bayazid one, but it is categorized by the curator(who knows absolutely nothing about arms and armour; believe me, I met him) as a "knife".

Below are some paintings in "Saz Yolu" or "Saz Üslubu" by Ottoman painter Şahkulu, inventor of the style:

Dragon in Leaves, 16th century

Dragon fighting unicorns, 16th century

Martin Lubojacky · 12th July 2014, 09:07 AM

Sancar,
Thank you !
Regards,
Martin

11th July 2014, 05:43 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Enclosed please find some Ottoman and maybe Seljuk dragon and phoenix (and similar) motives. I would say floral motives are very typical Ottoman motives for "newer" weapons (??18th, 19th century). I am also enclosing two pictures from the book Sultanlarin silahlari by Hilmi Aydin and on this occasion I would like to ask Sancar, why the author calls the weapon "hançer", and not "yatağan" ? Regards, Martin Attached Images

10th July 2014, 02:55 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, There is the blade manufacturer, and the blade decorator. Was Ahmet Tekelu's workshop decorating or forging the blades? I am waiting for permission to post a picture of what looks like an identical yataghan without the decorations, from the collection of the Madrid Royal Armoury. Incidentally, I am still searching for images of early yataghan from the Siege of Vienna, without any luck. Emanuel

10th July 2014, 07:31 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	What stunningly beautiful work..... Spiral

10th July 2014, 10:48 PM	#3
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	The yatağan in the Topkapi Palace armoury has signature on its back (Work of Ahmet Tekeli). Ahmet Tekeli, member of the court jewelers organisation is also mentioned several times in Court payroll record books (books of Ehl-i Hiref) of Kanuni Suleiman's era. One example lists the presents given by Suleiman Khan, for Ramadan Festival to court jeweler and koftgari master Ahmet Tekeli(3000 coins and a kaftan with spots). Ottoman court is famously very obsessive about keeping records of every small detail. And , I believe Ahmet Tekeli is the decorator of these blades, not the bladesmith.

11th July 2014, 03:09 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks Sancar!

12th July 2014, 05:41 AM	#6
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I personally find Hilmi Aydın's book not a very good source. I have the same book and I only use it for its pictures. Because he makes lots and lots of mistakes, misreadings of Ottoman Turkish scripts, misjudgements about origins of weaponry and terminology. Also, existing arms and armour terminology is not as clear cut as European counterpart(due to lack of interest in art history and archeology community in Turkey about arms and armour studies; most of my professors did not even consider it as a subject of study) Aydın must have made that mistake because of the shortness of the blade relative to later longer yataghans. There is a Timurid period yataghan in display in Topkapı armoury about same blade length and shape with the Ahmet Tekeli yataghan, with a earless jade handle(which might be a later addition) That yataghan is older than Kanuni ones, even maybe older than Bayazid one, but it is categorized by the curator(who knows absolutely nothing about arms and armour; believe me, I met him) as a "knife". Below are some paintings in "Saz Yolu" or "Saz Üslubu" by Ottoman painter Şahkulu, inventor of the style: Dragon in Leaves, 16th century Dragon fighting unicorns, 16th century

12th July 2014, 09:07 AM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Sancar, Thank you ! Regards, Martin