Maori Mere pounamu

kahnjar1 · 4th July 2014, 09:21 PM

Nice piece. Unless you got some provenance with it, age could be really hard to establish. The jade/greenstone is quite light in colour compared with others I have seen.
This link to Wiki might be of interest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patu
Stu

kronckew · 5th July 2014, 06:16 AM

thanks, bought mine from a local (UK) antique dealer in an online auction. only info i had was it was obtained 30-40 years ago. (estate sale?)

the 'in hand' photo (my hand - tho it appears a bit redder in the photo than actual) shows the side with slightly larger 'lighter' areas. vendor did mention they were still being made today.

found a seller in NZ online that sells new ones, at quite a bit more than i paid for one a few inches shorter, they also mentioned that you could get it with a rougher finish 'to make it look older', which is cheating.

mine is very highly polished. there are, however, a small arewa of some shallow ripples, tool marks in the narrowest bit on the sides just before the pommel that were not smoothed out completely that i can just feel with my finger tips and can just make out visually if i look real close.

google images brings up quite a few museum/antique examples, darker (almost black) and lighter. seems to be a fair variation. saw some that were auctioned for 20 times what it cost me. they must have had some strong provenance.

kahnjar1 · 5th July 2014, 07:16 AM

Not sure if your NZ source is right by saying that rougher is older. Museum items are usually/most often highly polished, probably more so than "rough", unless of course the item is unfinished.
Anything for sale from here, apart from stated modern made items, is most unlikely to be old as the local Iwi (tribes) are repatriating their heritage when they can, and laws govern what can be exported anyway.

kronckew · 5th July 2014, 07:41 AM

one of the advantages of living in the UK is that <s>looters</s>, er... explorers from GB have been bringing artifacts back here for centuries, and they pop up in estate sales at reasonable prices when the relatives sell of the dearly departed's prizes as junk.

i am keeping my eyes peeled for a full sized taiaha.

in the last decade or so, the russians, greeks, and chinese are also reclaiming their heritage and driving auction prices up. some do occasionally slip thru their nets.

the flood of 'antique' chinese jade and bronzes (bronze weapons in particular) on e-pray are all new, as china prohibits the export of any real antiques.

i tend to work under the assumption that if i can afford it, it's not a real 'antique'. with luck, i get some 'vintage' items. and some tourist crud. but the occasional gem too.

kahnjar1 · 5th July 2014, 12:33 PM

I agree. Most of the (then) colonial countries had their heritage "stolen". You are more likely to get genuine stuff where you are!.
Good luck with the Taiaha.

kronckew · 8th July 2014, 06:04 AM

the looting continues...

won this patu on e-pray from a USA Book-seller. the postage is costing me more than the club. 16 in. long x 4 in. at widest. (no lanyard hole, no carving other than the incised rings at the pommel) listed as 'vintage' polynesian, 'possibly maori'. looked 'possibly' enough for me to go for it.

kronckew · 8th July 2014, 10:06 PM

when it rains, it pours: found this one tonite, it's coming to stay with me. 18" (46cm.) x 6" wide (15cm.) listed as early to mid 20c. symmetrical both sides.

kronckew · 14th July 2014, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...

i am keeping my eyes peeled for a full sized taiaha.
...

found it. 145 cm.

VANDOO · 14th July 2014, 03:26 PM

THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES OF JADE COMING OUT OF NEW ZEALAND YOU CAN SEE EXAMPLES OF THE TYPES ON EBAY AND ONE SELLER USED TO LIST ALL THE TYPES AND THEIR DESCRIPTIONS. I AM NOT SURE WHAT TO CALL THE JADE USED ON YOUR MERE BUT THERE ARE SOME LIGHT COLORED JADES LIKE IT. MOST OLD MERE AND HEI TIKI ARE OF A DARKER GREEN JADE AND ARE SMOOTH AND POLISHED. THEY WERE MOST CHERISHED AND HANDLED A LOT AND FEEL VERY GOOD AND SMOOTH WITH VERY FEW MARKS FROM THEIR CONSTRUCTION TO BE SEEN OR FELT. THEY ARE WELL FORMED BUT MAY HAVE SOME VARIATIONS IN THICKNESS AND FLATNESS IN DIFFERENT AREAS.
I WOULD GO WITH THE APPROXIMATE AGE GIVEN ON YOUR EXAMPLE DUE TO THE TYPE OF JADE USED AND THE NUMBER OF LINES CARVED ON THE HANDLE.
A PICTURE OF A OLD HEI TIKI MADE OF THE SORT OF JADE USED ON MY OLD EXAMPLE MERE AND ON MOST OLDER MERE. THE JADE IS DARK GREEN WITH LIGHTER PATTERN WITHIN.

kronckew · 14th July 2014, 05:21 PM

thanks for your help, vanadoo. just went thru the tread on fijian clubs that had a post referring to older maori threads. quite informative.

in fact, it lead me to tim's post here

it looks like i have (post 9 above), not the original, but a darn good copy of the no. 48 in a. hamilton's book. i note a few minor variations in the patterns, on the grip area. and there is more apparent abalone shell inlayed eyes on the main tiki, 3 longitudinal bands, not 4. looked very hard to see any carving errors, border over runs, etc. didn't see any. oddly, the ends of the fibrous lanyard are sewn together along with the bits of feather.

very dark wood (NZ Tawa?). 43 cm. long, 15 cm. wide, 2 cm. thick, 312 gm.
teeny chip in edge shows wood fibres, same dark colour. bearing in mid the statements about plastic copies, i did the hot pin test. it's wood. i wiped it down with an oily rag (BLO) as there were a few dusty areas and it appeared a bit dry. it absorbed all the oil fairly quickly.

p.s. - found this jade manaia (bottom), thought it would hang nicely on the wall with the clubs when i display them.

ausjulius · 22nd July 2014, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Nice piece. Unless you got some provenance with it, age could be really hard to establish. The jade/greenstone is quite light in colour compared with others I have seen.
This link to Wiki might be of interest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patu
Stu

hello you can tell the age of the mere buy a number of factors.
its weight , how sharp the edge is ,
how even the lanyar hole is,
if the lanyar hole is worked smooth inside.
the finish of the tool
the shape of the genetalia inspired pommel and finally the greenstone used.
the old mere were very carefully selected to be a free of fractures as can be . newer ones are just cut from chunks of stone and sold for looks , btu with a fracture one hit and its broken.

really the best way to know if its been around for a while is look in the lanyard hole if its a really good copy they still wont think to polish the inside of the hole.
but if it is hol and has been used the lanyard will poslish the green stone in the hole to a fine gloss. and this ont ware off from rough handling or some nut refinishing it.

as to mere made in the modern era of maori culture 1920s till now.. hard to say.. as really one made yesterday and one made 50 years ago are all tourist items and this age range dosnt really add any extra value.

5th July 2014, 06:16 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	thanks, bought mine from a local (UK) antique dealer in an online auction. only info i had was it was obtained 30-40 years ago. (estate sale?) the 'in hand' photo (my hand - tho it appears a bit redder in the photo than actual) shows the side with slightly larger 'lighter' areas. vendor did mention they were still being made today. found a seller in NZ online that sells new ones, at quite a bit more than i paid for one a few inches shorter, they also mentioned that you could get it with a rougher finish 'to make it look older', which is cheating. mine is very highly polished. there are, however, a small arewa of some shallow ripples, tool marks in the narrowest bit on the sides just before the pommel that were not smoothed out completely that i can just feel with my finger tips and can just make out visually if i look real close. google images brings up quite a few museum/antique examples, darker (almost black) and lighter. seems to be a fair variation. saw some that were auctioned for 20 times what it cost me. they must have had some strong provenance. Last edited by kronckew; 5th July 2014 at 06:38 AM.

5th July 2014, 07:41 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	one of the advantages of living in the UK is that <s>looters</s>, er... explorers from GB have been bringing artifacts back here for centuries, and they pop up in estate sales at reasonable prices when the relatives sell of the dearly departed's prizes as junk. i am keeping my eyes peeled for a full sized taiaha. in the last decade or so, the russians, greeks, and chinese are also reclaiming their heritage and driving auction prices up. some do occasionally slip thru their nets. the flood of 'antique' chinese jade and bronzes (bronze weapons in particular) on e-pray are all new, as china prohibits the export of any real antiques. i tend to work under the assumption that if i can afford it, it's not a real 'antique'. with luck, i get some 'vintage' items. and some tourist crud. but the occasional gem too. Last edited by kronckew; 5th July 2014 at 07:58 AM.

8th July 2014, 06:04 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the looting continues... won this patu on e-pray from a USA Book-seller. the postage is costing me more than the club. 16 in. long x 4 in. at widest. (no lanyard hole, no carving other than the incised rings at the pommel) listed as 'vintage' polynesian, 'possibly maori'. looked 'possibly' enough for me to go for it. Attached Images

8th July 2014, 10:06 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	when it rains, it pours: found this one tonite, it's coming to stay with me. 18" (46cm.) x 6" wide (15cm.) listed as early to mid 20c. symmetrical both sides. Attached Images

14th July 2014, 03:26 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES OF JADE COMING OUT OF NEW ZEALAND YOU CAN SEE EXAMPLES OF THE TYPES ON EBAY AND ONE SELLER USED TO LIST ALL THE TYPES AND THEIR DESCRIPTIONS. I AM NOT SURE WHAT TO CALL THE JADE USED ON YOUR MERE BUT THERE ARE SOME LIGHT COLORED JADES LIKE IT. MOST OLD MERE AND HEI TIKI ARE OF A DARKER GREEN JADE AND ARE SMOOTH AND POLISHED. THEY WERE MOST CHERISHED AND HANDLED A LOT AND FEEL VERY GOOD AND SMOOTH WITH VERY FEW MARKS FROM THEIR CONSTRUCTION TO BE SEEN OR FELT. THEY ARE WELL FORMED BUT MAY HAVE SOME VARIATIONS IN THICKNESS AND FLATNESS IN DIFFERENT AREAS. I WOULD GO WITH THE APPROXIMATE AGE GIVEN ON YOUR EXAMPLE DUE TO THE TYPE OF JADE USED AND THE NUMBER OF LINES CARVED ON THE HANDLE. A PICTURE OF A OLD HEI TIKI MADE OF THE SORT OF JADE USED ON MY OLD EXAMPLE MERE AND ON MOST OLDER MERE. THE JADE IS DARK GREEN WITH LIGHTER PATTERN WITHIN. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 14th July 2014 at 03:52 PM.

4th July 2014, 09:21 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Nice piece. Unless you got some provenance with it, age could be really hard to establish. The jade/greenstone is quite light in colour compared with others I have seen. This link to Wiki might be of interest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patu Stu

5th July 2014, 07:16 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Not sure if your NZ source is right by saying that rougher is older. Museum items are usually/most often highly polished, probably more so than "rough", unless of course the item is unfinished. Anything for sale from here, apart from stated modern made items, is most unlikely to be old as the local Iwi (tribes) are repatriating their heritage when they can, and laws govern what can be exported anyway.

5th July 2014, 12:33 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	I agree. Most of the (then) colonial countries had their heritage "stolen". You are more likely to get genuine stuff where you are!. Good luck with the Taiaha.

14th July 2014, 05:21 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	thanks for your help, vanadoo. just went thru the tread on fijian clubs that had a post referring to older maori threads. quite informative. in fact, it lead me to tim's post here it looks like i have (post 9 above), not the original, but a darn good copy of the no. 48 in a. hamilton's book. i note a few minor variations in the patterns, on the grip area. and there is more apparent abalone shell inlayed eyes on the main tiki, 3 longitudinal bands, not 4. looked very hard to see any carving errors, border over runs, etc. didn't see any. oddly, the ends of the fibrous lanyard are sewn together along with the bits of feather. very dark wood (NZ Tawa?). 43 cm. long, 15 cm. wide, 2 cm. thick, 312 gm. teeny chip in edge shows wood fibres, same dark colour. bearing in mid the statements about plastic copies, i did the hot pin test. it's wood. i wiped it down with an oily rag (BLO) as there were a few dusty areas and it appeared a bit dry. it absorbed all the oil fairly quickly. p.s. - found this jade manaia (bottom), thought it would hang nicely on the wall with the clubs when i display them. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 15th July 2014 at 12:15 AM.