Figural !

[VVV]

A beautiful hilt, Jean.
Yes, we all know about the term putrasatu, but that is what Alan referred to as "the understanding of present day Jawa". We were trying to go a bit deeper into the symbolism of this, and the related, hilts. Even if it is not possible to find a definitive answer it is still interesting to give it a joint try and perhaps find some probable clues.

Michael

[Jean]

Thank you Michael and Alan for your very educative posts.
I am now showing another common specimen of putra satu hilt with peculiar features (sort of mask on the face, shield under the left elbow, and left leg looking like a fish tail?). Any interpretation for it?

Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

I've got a thing about names, and for that matter, about language in general.

Words are supposed to convey ideas:- we get the words wrong, the ideas get deformed, twisted and those ideas no longer move freely from one person to another.

When we examine words we can learn a lot about origins.

Origins of ideas, origins of motives, origins of the things to which the words refer. Other origins too.

So words are pretty important. They need to be right. That is, if they are intended to mean anything.

In this discussion group, we use words, because we would be unable to discuss if we did not use words. Who ever heard of a discussion without words?

We more or less agree on a common vocabulary, and we do this so that each of us knows what the other person is talking about.

So, if Jean refers to the hilt shown in post #99 as a "putra satu", we all know what he's talking about. If Michael calls it a "yaksa", yep, we understand him too. If somebody wants to call it "raksasa", I doubt any of us will have any problem with that.

For myself, I don't really care what anybody calls it. My professional mind would like to label it as a Jawa ZX7, but then I'd be the only one who knew what I meant, so that would be a pretty silly way to go.

But lets look at what the common terms used to describe this hilt type mean.

We've already had a discussion on yaksa & raksasa, so I won't revisit them except to mention in passing that both words are Javanese, and were known in Old Javanese.

But "putra satu". That one is an interesting name.

Why?

Because it is a new name. A very new name. A name that is extremely unlikely to have been in use in Jawa prior to, let's say, 1950. A name that in any case would never have had a Javanese usage at any time in history.

Why?

Because it is Bahasa Indonesia, not Javanese.

In Javanese the word "satu" refers to a kind of cake.

In Javanese the word "putra" means a child.

But when these words occur in Indonesian they mean something else entirely.

The word "putra" means "prince" (it has other associated meanings, depending upon context; it is a contraction of "putera")

The word "satu" means "one".

I do not know where the term "putra satu" originated. I know it is in general usage amongst collectors, and some dealers.

My gut feeling is that this term is a dealer's invention to flim-flam collectors.

Most importantly, this term tells us nothing at all of what name this hilt type may have been given by the people who carved them and wore them.

It is simply a term that permits identification amongst collectors.

[Sajen]

Thank you for your logical education about the term "putra satu" Alan. Of course I am aware about the meaning (my young son is named Putra) but never thought about that it can't be the correct name for this hilt type simple because it isn't a javanese term.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are a few more "green bean cake" hilts.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here are a few more "green bean cake" hilts.

Beautiful hilts, thank's for sharing.

[Gustav]

I suggest the terrifying name "devilish granny" for this one.

[Gustav]

Yaksa? Perhaps an older one.