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20th June 2014, 10:00 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,786
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21st June 2014, 09:12 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Just to remind members that this is Kuburs thread on a restoration note... Anyone wishing to take on the discussion over the Omani Sword form (The dancing sword)is more than welcome to do so ...but on the correct thread which is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Sayf
Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown ! Bring it on...  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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21st June 2014, 03:06 PM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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I do not want to draw on fiction and change one sword to another, I only want you to understand there are dance sword which you describe so well and there are swords with fighting blade of the same form being from antiquity, that is all. It cannot be denied or passed off as bazaar rubbish for tourist if it does not conform to your beliefs. The knowledge of the fact that there are both types in existence should be shared with all. I am happy to listen to your methods of leather and silver binding for the restoration, please proceed but without quantifying your sole beliefs about what the blade must be first before you do...it is the binding in question for the hilt form. Gavin |
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21st June 2014, 03:41 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Tourist Swords.
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Confusion and misunderstanding have tricked onlookers/visitors to Oman throughout history into imagining that the dancing sword must have been used in battle. It never was. It was carried by soldiers for ceremonial salutation and pageantry duties only.(Funun) In fact it must be viewed as a dynastic ceremonial sword. ************************************************** * Question ~So where does the sword which has a stiff apparent fighting blade for come from? Answer ~ Ethiopia ~and having originally been made in Germany as a trade blade...Used in Ethiopia then exported via Yemen where the hilts which were usually Rhino were stripped off...and used for Jambia hilts... backyard rough hilts were placed ...and the weapons were sold in Sanaa etc...Many were transferred to Oman where since 1970 they have been sold as is ...complete with rough iron hilts or further rehilted in the Omani Style; some quite expertly so...and with welded hilt extensions plus the Omani Pommel and conical hilts and look every inch like a dancer except they aren't...but were sold through Muttrah Souk to non suspecting tourists worldwide. This is still being done. (I estimate that since 1970 thousands of rehilts may have been thus produced.) These are not Omani fighting blades but ironically they are probably Ethiopian fighting blades...simply the result of souk trade transfer and clever rehilting...Ethiopia.... Yemen ... Oman. Origin; Germany. Thus the designation is Tourist Sword.  SEE #241 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments which shows a German made sword from Ethiopia having done the international souk transfer and finally having been given the Muttrah treatment before being re hilted with an Omani conical hilt plus silver work etc then sold to Tourists .. I have given the thread originator the Forum site from which he can observe many different hilt decorative styles. Before proceeding with any other beneficial assistance I would prefer to know what is the blade... Omani or Ethiopian?... so that I may advise accordingly... and so that he may know the facts. Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st June 2014 at 06:04 PM. |
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22nd June 2014, 08:25 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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So it continues here :-)
Both exist, I am sorry you can't see nor accept it and did not wish to inspect first hand those I had offered. If I based your previous defence on the matter as absolute one would have to consider every sword presented on the subject as a souk fake... There are a few points about the flexible blades, their origins and types that need to be taken with more consideration too as your theories are not absolute. Kubur, I will have time next week to draw from images I have in sold stock archives that display both simple and complex hilt bindings. I am sure you will be able to base a sound restoration on them. Please remind me if I forget. Gavin |
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22nd June 2014, 08:56 AM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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It continues here because you refuse to continue it elsewhere... Your offer to inspect your sword in Australia was vaguelly irrelevant...I am in Oman...Why would I want to go to Australia to see Omani Swords? You make a sweeping remark about swords which I observe as fakes...Irrelevant; try to stay on subject.. If you have a few points about the sword type in question why don't you float them here ? Or on the correct thread below; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Omani+Sayf My question to the thread originator is designed to see if the sword is a tourist item or an original Omani Sayf... The Dancing Sword. If you have perhaps accidentally misrepresented a sword ..sold from your collection... as a fighting blade when the sword type was for Dancing and Pageants only...that is your problem. Consider changing your Historical Package to accomodate the correct detail. The Omani Dancing Sword..Pageants, Funun and Salutations only... Never a Fighting Sword. Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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21st June 2014, 03:06 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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Double post of the same
 Please delete my rolling eyes....
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26th June 2014, 10:37 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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As in" not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull?" & "bring it on" ok if that's your wish...  mmm that's realy funny coming from you , remember what you have learnt from my posts?. That you now proclaim to everyone... The Ethiopian connection etc. Re. The re. use for Jambiyas & numerous others things on the same subject, & the many references I published for you? That you know pronounce yourself as the authority upon....I suggest you have a look in the mirror before you step on your own dick again.... Its a terrible habit.  Spiral |
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26th June 2014, 11:46 PM
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#9 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
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1st July 2014, 11:46 AM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Dear All,
I just came back from a long trip. I'm really sorry that my innocent question brought such quarrels. Thank you very much ALL and A special thanks to Ibrahiim. I have two news. First the blade is hard, not flexible. Old with a very good patina sharp also, I'm not an expert but I think that it's a perfect sword for fight. with a very good balance second, i was wrong the hilt is not plain wood but covered with a thick and hard brown leather in fact this sword is absolutely amazing and i wont do anything on it... Again thank you all and really sorry for the strong and different opinions expressed here... The more important is to stay between gentlemen. |
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1st July 2014, 05:15 PM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Salaams Kubur, Thank you for your encouraging words. Whilst this is not a competition I believe it would be honourable to wait a week or so before I re enter this discussion which will allow time for a full reflection on the terms this sword appears to be suggesting. I look forward to the details which I suggest will be heavily weighted from my viewpoint on this being a European rehilt. If possible I would ask if the hilt can be x-rayed... I have a good friend who is a VET with a portable x-ray machine... perhaps you know someone ..It will determine if the tang has been altered. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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10th July 2014, 07:35 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Spiral |
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15th July 2014, 08:59 PM
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Hi Kuber,
I see Ibrahim hasbt found the time or inclination to repley around your Kattara yet, So ill offer a little help. There are 6 types of Omani Swords. 1.The Old Omani Battle Sword. Battle Sword. Straight and stiff. 2.The Curved Kattara. Merchant and Slavers Sword. Curved. Quite rigid.. 3.The Omani Dancing Sword. Pageants and Salutations ...The Dynastic Item...Dynasty started 1744 but sword would have taken time to promote perhaps 15 years. Straight and very flexible. 4. The straight bladed fighting Kattara 5. The straight bladed kattara fake made by dodgy Omani dealers in the souk. 6. The Omani Fighting Shamshir. Spiral |
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16th July 2014, 08:36 AM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Salaams Spiral, No not at all ... Ive been hugely busy on a completely different subject but I apologise if you were waiting .. You have listed 6 swords of Oman. There are, however, not 6. Your first three are correct... with the slight proviso that the 1744 and the 15 year thing was me rather thinking aloud as it is now possible that the dancing sword may have been tuned in by the later ruler in 1804 (Said Bin Sultan...) and it may have taken a while to spread countrywide ...from its base in the Askeris or Palace Guard possession. Your number; 4. Is non existant. 5. Is a non starter since it was only since 1970 that thousands of these rehilts have been sold as Tourist items in the souk... German/ Ethiopian Rehilts. 6. Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people. The trouble is like many objects of this nature it is extremely difficult to narrow it down as to start point. That being said we have despite the difficulties engineered some very logical and often well backed up theories. The major document apart from the one in my head (comprising about 30 years of personal research) is the Richardson and Dorr double volume ...but even that and others plus documentation from prestigious places like Icoman and Omanisilver dot com and the wealth of museums in Muscat are sprinkled with imprecise detail.. they never say for example : This sword was invented in WXYZ or this battle saw the following weapons deployed.... it simply does not exist in the archives so far studied. One of my main resources is the Funun which wasn't even written down; such is the nature of passed down parents-to-offspring of Omani history via pageantry, pantomime, singing and poetry.... and for additional good reasons since, in the old days hardly anyone here could read and write !! Vital background in this respect should be studied at http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/rhythem.asp Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Hybrid Mode
