Kampi-Kaska-Kouba

trenchwarfare · 13th June 2014, 06:48 PM

Thanks Iain. Searching is so much easier, when you know what you're searching for. Any idea as to age? No problem, Spiral. We all know more than we do, sometimes. It's part of the learning process. I try to learn something new, everyday.

spiral · 14th June 2014, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

No problem, Spiral. We all know more than we do, sometimes. It's part of the learning process. I try to learn something new, everyday.

Thanks TW, me to!

Looked through a few books this morning, trying to see where Id seen these identified as Taureg.. turns out it was from Anthony c. Tirris "" Islamic weapons" Mahgreb to Moghul""

Sadly that's just one of many mistakes in that book.

Nice coffee table style book though!

Spiral

Iain · 14th June 2014, 10:39 AM

Hi Guys,

These are a confusing one for sure. They have the look of a takouba hilt in many ways. Probably there's a shared heritage way back in the mists of time. But these with the horn hilts seem to be a more 'rough and ready' type of thing.

The blades seem to be quite often to be from European backswords.

On the age, I'm afraid I really don't know! But I would guess 19th century for sure.

Some older ones have metal work on the hilts as well. See this old thread: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7429

I'd love to own one like that!

There was a bit of discussion here as well: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13911

I see them pop up every now and again but they are certainly far from common.

I haven't read the Tirri book, but from everything I've heard the text would probably just make me annoyed.

spiral · 14th June 2014, 08:59 PM

Ahhh I an not the first to fall for Tirris work on this subject then...

interesting Threads Iain, thanks, certainly learnt something today..

Think there spectacular pieces myself... the old trade blades married with old native work... lovely... A truly matching pair as well..

Spiral

Iain · 14th June 2014, 09:25 PM

These were a complete mystery to me before as well. I think Martin deserves the credit here for making a regional ID.

Once he mentioned the Tunisia connection things started to make a bit more sense. I think there were a couple old French post cards floating around showing these as well. I'll have to try and dig them out.

Jim McDougall · 16th June 2014, 09:46 PM

Iain is of course spot on with the Tunisian classification, and few know these North African swords as he does. Actually Spiral, yours was a most reasonable observation, and frankly these weren't accurately identified until a number of years back (indeed Iain I believe it was Martin). They would show up occasionally as complete anomalies until I believe enough showed up in Tunisian areas to classify.

From what I believe has been determined, Tunisia was one key point for entry of European blades in the 19th century, and it would be reasonable to expect that many would remain in those regions while the larger volume entered the southward trade routes. It seems some of these have turned up with 'backsword' (single edge) blades (as seen here) and as the Saharan markets preferred broadsword blades, it would explain why these might have stayed in the Tunisian entrepots.

The Tirri book does indeed have a number of such errors, but in the time he was preparing it there were a number of controversies with a number of forms. I always considered the book useful in good degree for a collectors guide, more of a handbook, as it is full of well photographed examples of the often more pedestrian degree weapons usually encountered by collectors.
Personally I would prefer that he would have added references or cites, and some of the errors can be pretty misleading.

These blades both appear to be Solingen cavalry pallasche blades of latter 18th to early 19th c..

Iain · 20th June 2014, 11:13 AM

I think there's still a lot to learn about this type and we are only scratching the surface. The one example I linked to seems to be much older but I have a lot of questions still.

Are these always horn? Some seem to have metal decorative elements on top. Some seem to have fairly early blades, which Berber group are these from?

Many things yet to try and hunt down I think.

13th June 2014, 06:48 PM	#1
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Thanks Iain. Searching is so much easier, when you know what you're searching for. Any idea as to age? No problem, Spiral. We all know more than we do, sometimes. It's part of the learning process. I try to learn something new, everyday.

14th June 2014, 10:39 AM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Hi Guys, These are a confusing one for sure. They have the look of a takouba hilt in many ways. Probably there's a shared heritage way back in the mists of time. But these with the horn hilts seem to be a more 'rough and ready' type of thing. The blades seem to be quite often to be from European backswords. On the age, I'm afraid I really don't know! But I would guess 19th century for sure. Some older ones have metal work on the hilts as well. See this old thread: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7429 I'd love to own one like that! There was a bit of discussion here as well: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13911 I see them pop up every now and again but they are certainly far from common. I haven't read the Tirri book, but from everything I've heard the text would probably just make me annoyed.

14th June 2014, 08:59 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ahhh I an not the first to fall for Tirris work on this subject then... interesting Threads Iain, thanks, certainly learnt something today.. Think there spectacular pieces myself... the old trade blades married with old native work... lovely... A truly matching pair as well.. Spiral

14th June 2014, 09:25 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	These were a complete mystery to me before as well. I think Martin deserves the credit here for making a regional ID. Once he mentioned the Tunisia connection things started to make a bit more sense. I think there were a couple old French post cards floating around showing these as well. I'll have to try and dig them out.

16th June 2014, 09:46 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,652	Iain is of course spot on with the Tunisian classification, and few know these North African swords as he does. Actually Spiral, yours was a most reasonable observation, and frankly these weren't accurately identified until a number of years back (indeed Iain I believe it was Martin). They would show up occasionally as complete anomalies until I believe enough showed up in Tunisian areas to classify. From what I believe has been determined, Tunisia was one key point for entry of European blades in the 19th century, and it would be reasonable to expect that many would remain in those regions while the larger volume entered the southward trade routes. It seems some of these have turned up with 'backsword' (single edge) blades (as seen here) and as the Saharan markets preferred broadsword blades, it would explain why these might have stayed in the Tunisian entrepots. The Tirri book does indeed have a number of such errors, but in the time he was preparing it there were a number of controversies with a number of forms. I always considered the book useful in good degree for a collectors guide, more of a handbook, as it is full of well photographed examples of the often more pedestrian degree weapons usually encountered by collectors. Personally I would prefer that he would have added references or cites, and some of the errors can be pretty misleading. These blades both appear to be Solingen cavalry pallasche blades of latter 18th to early 19th c..

20th June 2014, 11:13 AM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	I think there's still a lot to learn about this type and we are only scratching the surface. The one example I linked to seems to be much older but I have a lot of questions still. Are these always horn? Some seem to have metal decorative elements on top. Some seem to have fairly early blades, which Berber group are these from? Many things yet to try and hunt down I think.