Turkish knife

erlikhan · 18th November 2005, 07:10 PM

Well I think a Moroccan can best estimate if it is their trench or not. I dont know if they have ever had use of such a combo design of crescent and star in therir traditions. What I feel from the design, somebody has tried to imitate an Ottoman identity as far as their knowledge and visual memory let them.

Miyamoto · 19th November 2005, 10:57 AM

Causcasian front?

Tim Simmons · 19th November 2005, 11:37 AM

Yes I think you might have it, look here,
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

Freddy · 19th November 2005, 01:47 PM

Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

erlikhan · 19th November 2005, 03:21 PM

Very interesting! Can u pls show all of the sword? Does it have en suite mountings on scabbard or decoration on blade? I wonder if that is original or a later addition. Rivkin could perhaps have an idea about any possible Caucasian tribe with 6 pointed star ?

Freddy · 19th November 2005, 06:27 PM

I searched on the internet and found some other countries with a star and moon in their flag.

I found an old picture of an Egyptian flag with moon and 7 pointed star.

The flag of Azerbedjan shows a moon and an 8 pointed star.

Perhaps there's a country (in the Caucasus ?) which uses the symbol of an moon and a 6 pointed star. Who knows ?

Rivkin · 19th November 2005, 07:05 PM

Well, not being a specialist:

I've seen quite a lot of shashkas similar to one shown by Miyamoto. In my opinion, they all come from late XIX- early XX century, and may be represent some unknown military pattern (because they all have this 6 point star and crescent). On the other hand the quality of shashkas varies so...

Now to the symbolics - while 6 point star was videly used by turkish tribes, its use gradually decreased in favor of 5 and 8 point stars (turks, azeris, karachai, balkar).

6 point star is a symbol of Trabzon weaponry (afaik), but it is always depicted in a circle and without the crescent - as on yataghan's hilt that I attached to the message (btw it belonged to Lermontov. The blade was destroyed due to the soviet restrictions on "weapons".)

Now 6 point star, together with crescent and arrows is a symbol of Kabarda tribe (part of circassians). Ironically it is even persisted as part of ensignia of northern caucasus SS unit during WWII. Other adighes prefer to use 5 point stars.

6 point star with a crescent also have been heavily used in Ingushetia. It was also used by "jew-like" muslims in Karachai, and by a very small group of osethian muslisms.

Can it be a symbol of circassian units in Turkey ? I think more knowledgeble person has to be asked about it, since the symbol is somewhat too generic to pinpoint the exact origin.

I should also point out that six point star and a crescent was used by some of the russian pre-revolution troops from Uzbekistan.

ariel · 19th November 2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

Causcasian front?

Beware!
This item is still active on e-bay and the fiersome Moderators are wide awake.

For a similar mistake I have been banned for 10 days.
Let's not discuss this shashka for a while.

erlikhan · 19th November 2005, 09:15 PM

Rivkin, 6 pointed star was always used by Trabzon or any other town in the Ottoman empire and other non Ottomanic Turks or perhaps other Moslems, as a talismanic symbol to bring good luck and fortune and perhaps even didnt decrease till the end of 19th c. The picture you attached is in that manner. 6 pointed star without a crescent. But what would surprize me only is to see it inside a crescent. I have seen crescent and 8 pointed star in Azeri kindjals(and their flag is still 8 p. ), and 5 p. in some others, but not a 6 pointed. So you say, you have seen a lot of shashkas with exactly that design - 6 p. star inside a crescent-, right? By Kabardins. But not other Circassians..Interesting info.
I guess you want to mean Karaims by "Jew like Moslems" .They are Turk in race and language and Jew in religion,whose population were quite large in Ukraine and Caucassia before WW2 German occupation, but very little now. I know them as merchants,and dont think they would have troops, militaristic symbols and productions. Could they have combined 6 p. star and the crescent to symbolize their special identity??And Uzbek troops with the same symbol? I would like to see if any picture is available.
regards

Battara · 19th November 2005, 10:42 PM

IN Rivkin's last picture, the 6 pointed star is called the Star of Solomon by Muslims. Somewhat talismanic.

Rivkin · 19th November 2005, 11:46 PM

Jew-likes is something more similar to turkish denmeh than to karaites - while the latter ones are a sect in judaism. Jew-like (zhukty) means someone who descends from a jew, preferrably on their male line.

The reason for their existance is that until very recently religious identification for most of caucasians was rather vague. People lived by clans, sharing the same male ancestry. Female ancestry did not account for anything (since women were almost in 100% taken from clans or nations different from that of the father).
As a result, clans were identified by their founder - chechens of georgian ancestry (gurj), georgians of chechen ancestry, abaza of svan ancestry etc.
Similar to this jew-like clans (for example Bagrations) are defined as the ones that were founded by jews.

I don't think this sword has much to do with them...
Concerning shashkas - unless this is the same shashka being resold over and over again, I've seen quite a lot of those.

erlikhan · 20th November 2005, 09:21 AM

Ah got it now. Like Sabetaists (donme) in Turkey. Anyway, if you think the sword has not much to do with them, then let's put point to the ethnical side of the subject as I 've learned continuing ethnical conversations in the forum mean increasing potential of unexpected trouble

.

19th November 2005, 10:57 AM	#2
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Causcasian front? Last edited by Andrew; 20th November 2005 at 03:22 AM. Reason: Removed active auction photo

19th November 2005, 07:05 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, not being a specialist: I've seen quite a lot of shashkas similar to one shown by Miyamoto. In my opinion, they all come from late XIX- early XX century, and may be represent some unknown military pattern (because they all have this 6 point star and crescent). On the other hand the quality of shashkas varies so... Now to the symbolics - while 6 point star was videly used by turkish tribes, its use gradually decreased in favor of 5 and 8 point stars (turks, azeris, karachai, balkar). 6 point star is a symbol of Trabzon weaponry (afaik), but it is always depicted in a circle and without the crescent - as on yataghan's hilt that I attached to the message (btw it belonged to Lermontov. The blade was destroyed due to the soviet restrictions on "weapons".) Now 6 point star, together with crescent and arrows is a symbol of Kabarda tribe (part of circassians). Ironically it is even persisted as part of ensignia of northern caucasus SS unit during WWII. Other adighes prefer to use 5 point stars. 6 point star with a crescent also have been heavily used in Ingushetia. It was also used by "jew-like" muslims in Karachai, and by a very small group of osethian muslisms. Can it be a symbol of circassian units in Turkey ? I think more knowledgeble person has to be asked about it, since the symbol is somewhat too generic to pinpoint the exact origin. I should also point out that six point star and a crescent was used by some of the russian pre-revolution troops from Uzbekistan. Attached Images

18th November 2005, 07:10 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Well I think a Moroccan can best estimate if it is their trench or not. I dont know if they have ever had use of such a combo design of crescent and star in therir traditions. What I feel from the design, somebody has tried to imitate an Ottoman identity as far as their knowledge and visual memory let them.

19th November 2005, 11:37 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,897	Yes I think you might have it, look here, http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...offensive.aspx

19th November 2005, 01:47 PM	#4
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Miyamoto, where did you find this pic ?

19th November 2005, 03:21 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Very interesting! Can u pls show all of the sword? Does it have en suite mountings on scabbard or decoration on blade? I wonder if that is original or a later addition. Rivkin could perhaps have an idea about any possible Caucasian tribe with 6 pointed star ?

19th November 2005, 06:27 PM	#6
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I searched on the internet and found some other countries with a star and moon in their flag. I found an old picture of an Egyptian flag with moon and 7 pointed star. The flag of Azerbedjan shows a moon and an 8 pointed star. Perhaps there's a country (in the Caucasus ?) which uses the symbol of an moon and a 6 pointed star. Who knows ?

19th November 2005, 09:15 PM	#9
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, 6 pointed star was always used by Trabzon or any other town in the Ottoman empire and other non Ottomanic Turks or perhaps other Moslems, as a talismanic symbol to bring good luck and fortune and perhaps even didnt decrease till the end of 19th c. The picture you attached is in that manner. 6 pointed star without a crescent. But what would surprize me only is to see it inside a crescent. I have seen crescent and 8 pointed star in Azeri kindjals(and their flag is still 8 p. ), and 5 p. in some others, but not a 6 pointed. So you say, you have seen a lot of shashkas with exactly that design - 6 p. star inside a crescent-, right? By Kabardins. But not other Circassians..Interesting info. I guess you want to mean Karaims by "Jew like Moslems" .They are Turk in race and language and Jew in religion,whose population were quite large in Ukraine and Caucassia before WW2 German occupation, but very little now. I know them as merchants,and dont think they would have troops, militaristic symbols and productions. Could they have combined 6 p. star and the crescent to symbolize their special identity??And Uzbek troops with the same symbol? I would like to see if any picture is available. regards

19th November 2005, 10:42 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,339	IN Rivkin's last picture, the 6 pointed star is called the Star of Solomon by Muslims. Somewhat talismanic.

19th November 2005, 11:46 PM	#11
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Jew-likes is something more similar to turkish denmeh than to karaites - while the latter ones are a sect in judaism. Jew-like (zhukty) means someone who descends from a jew, preferrably on their male line. The reason for their existance is that until very recently religious identification for most of caucasians was rather vague. People lived by clans, sharing the same male ancestry. Female ancestry did not account for anything (since women were almost in 100% taken from clans or nations different from that of the father). As a result, clans were identified by their founder - chechens of georgian ancestry (gurj), georgians of chechen ancestry, abaza of svan ancestry etc. Similar to this jew-like clans (for example Bagrations) are defined as the ones that were founded by jews. I don't think this sword has much to do with them... Concerning shashkas - unless this is the same shashka being resold over and over again, I've seen quite a lot of those.

20th November 2005, 09:21 AM	#12
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Ah got it now. Like Sabetaists (donme) in Turkey. Anyway, if you think the sword has not much to do with them, then let's put point to the ethnical side of the subject as I 've learned continuing ethnical conversations in the forum mean increasing potential of unexpected trouble .