British Hanger like a model 1751

Kmaddock · 27th May 2014, 11:15 AM

Hi All
I would appreciate some information on the attached sword.
I am new to this forum but have done as much research as i could to identify the attached item.
I got the item blind at a local auction , it was v v rusty and i have cleaned as much of the active rust as i can without getting down to the nice black platina
Very cautious bronze wool cleaning was all i have used and there is no sctatching on the metal work just deep inactive oxidation
I was delighted to find the running fox of Samuel Harvey of Birmingham on the blade, I have included close ups of the marking and i am confident enough of the identification
it looks v similar to a M1751 hanger but the guard is all steel and not brass and the brass handle is of rope work pattern and a bit different
The protective bars are a lot different as well
So it is not a M1751 but would anyone be able to give me any further information on this sword.
If no further identification can be made would anyone hazard a guess on the age of the sword?
blade length is 24.5 inches
any corrections to my above assumptions gratefully accepted

Thanks in advance
Ken

Jim McDougall · 29th May 2014, 06:59 PM

Hi Ken,
Its been a long time since looking into these old British patterns, especially with the hangers so I'll need to retrieve some of the books now buried here in the Bookmobile. I will say that this is 'of the type' of the British hangers which became known as the M1851 and I believe there was another a little earlier if memory serves. These were based largely on extant German patterns.The use of the so called Passau wolf had ceased in Germany by the 18th century but Samuel Harvey (indeed a maker associated with these) had adopted the mark as a 'quality' reference alluding to the well known German makers in Hounslow and Shotley Bridge of the previous century. The rather arbitrary model or pattern designations were derived much later by collectors using old artwork (Dighton uniform prints I believe and others). Establishing 'patterns' or 'model numbers' was achieved usually by using these old artworks and in many cases military regulations and orders reviewed in later years by researchers and collectors.

A most helpful reference is "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann, and of course the venerable "Swords of the British Army" by Brian Robson, both the old 1975 version and better revised version. One of the best references on British cavalry is the recently released book by Richard Dellar.

Norman McCormick · 29th May 2014, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I believe there was another a little earlier if memory serves.

Hi Jim,
The '1742', here's one with the guard removed, a not uncommon period adaptation.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2014, 03:28 AM

Norman,
Thank you so much for showing us that example, and for the note on the adaptions often used as these hangers were in service.

I have finally excavated my copy of 'Neumann' and looking into the examples seen have revealed that the 'M1742' and 'M1751' were indeed as I noted, give these classifications by later collectors using period artwork as a guide.
While some of these hangers were made in Germany, most were British and it seems these guards were typically in a 'heart shape' though quite similar to this one, and invariably in brass (both '1742; and '1751') .

The so called '1742' (Neumann 10.S) gained that classification from its representation in painting in the Duke of Cumberlands 'Representation of His Majesty's Forces' of that year. Hangers of this form (no branches on guard) ranged from 1725-50.
It should of course be remembered that the blades used in these hangers were often rehilted or used for various models from stores.

Example 12.S (p.65) is English c.1735-55, and appears most like this example of Ken's with the exception it is like the others, with brass hilt.
Here it is noted that it is a pattern used by grenadiers of the 3rd Regiment of Foot as seen in one of David Morier's paintings of 1751. In this case the single branch on the hilt is present.

In similar instance, (Neumann 19.S) is another of these hangers, but with two branches , and seen in the Morier 1751 paintings, here noting that this two branch example is the one which became known as the M1751. The range on these is shown as 1750-1768 and these were used extensively in the French-Indian and Revolutionary Wars.

This and several examples shown in Neumann all have blades by Samuel Harvey of Birmingham, and with similar fuller along back edge and are marked with the running wolf mark.

It seems to me that the Samuel Harvey blades with running wolf were prevalent right at about mid 18th century, and must have been in considerable volume with this single fuller against back of the blade. It is hard to guage of course whether these were in their original hilts or mounted as others were produced or refurbished. The running wolf was adopted by Harvey as noted, in my opinion reflecting the earlier German blades made in England (bushy tail as opposed to thin tail on Germany forms earlier).

What seems important is this unusual iron guard as opposed to the prevalent brass guards. The only two examples with iron were one quite early 18th c. and another . 1740s.

Obviously a variant using a Harvey blade, this most resembles the M1751 as with branch on the guard, and probably for grenadiers or fusiliers of the 1740-50 period. These type hangers were in use long before the artwork of 1740s and 50s, and the Harvey blades c.1750.

Beautifully patinated, please leave as except removing active rust as has been done.

Kmaddock · 30th May 2014, 10:30 AM

Hi Jim/Norman,
Thanks for your interest and knowledge.
I knew absolutley nothing about this sword when i purchased it.
I have Robinson's book and recogonised it as a hanger and took a punt at the sword, 1788 and 1796 LC are more my main collecting area so i decided to try and get an earlier sword.

I have attached the photos the auctioneer sent on to me so you can see it was in a rough enough shape but I taught it might be decent enough under all the obvious rust.

Jim, the guard is heart shaped like M M1741's and M1751's but the all steel handguard as you note is a little different. Cleaning is now finished so the platina is safe, it looks a bit red in the photos but in the hand, I am happy I have all the active rust removed

A sword I am happy to have and at a very reasonable price, i think, my wife might differ.
Best regards to all
Ken

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2014, 05:03 PM

I'm with you Ken.......British cavalry swords are among the most intriguing forms (have you gotten Richard Dellar's new book yet?) and the M1788 and M1796 are most interesting as the first unofficial and official 'patterns'.

Absolutely superb job of conserving this very attractive British hanger, and this does seem a good example of a variation which was probably fashioned in England around the 1740s. It is tempting to think of it possibly as a prototype for the two branch form recognized as the 'M1751', but in those times independent makers of course deviated considerably. This was of course more likely for hilts fashioned from iron as opposed obviously to the cast brass hilts which predominated these hangers.

As noted, the still somewhat discernible 'fox' marking was used by Samuel Harvey and it seems typically his initials were incorporated into the mark. In this case, though the initials I presume are not visible, it still seems I can see the brushier tail characteristic of the English versions of the 'running wolf'.

An excellent acquisition Ken! and astutely recognized despite its rough condition. While many of these kinds of hangers were so widely produced and many of almost munitions category, this one is far 'off the beaten path' and is tempting to consider it was possibly an officers.

Kmaddock · 30th May 2014, 05:37 PM

Hi Jim
Thanks for putting the Officer idea in my head!
Brass was a lot more expensive than steel in those days though so I would have imagined the Officer would have gone for a bit of "Bling" I suppose we will never know.
The sword is nice to hold in the hand but very tight with the guard wrapping around the knuckles.
I was thinking about Normans sword and the bars removed, I wonder is it a later adaptation as peoples hands got bigger as nutrition improved and removing the guard was the only way to keep these types of sword servicable, especially with a gloved hand.

Richard Dellar's book is on my wish list but another one of my areas of interest is WWI and before imperial German/Austrian empire bayonets and I am finding a few of the very elusive ones of these coming up for sale.
But a good book will pay its way back so a decision will have to be made.
Best regards,
Ken

27th May 2014, 11:15 AM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	British Hanger like a model 1751 Hi All I would appreciate some information on the attached sword. I am new to this forum but have done as much research as i could to identify the attached item. I got the item blind at a local auction , it was v v rusty and i have cleaned as much of the active rust as i can without getting down to the nice black platina Very cautious bronze wool cleaning was all i have used and there is no sctatching on the metal work just deep inactive oxidation I was delighted to find the running fox of Samuel Harvey of Birmingham on the blade, I have included close ups of the marking and i am confident enough of the identification it looks v similar to a M1751 hanger but the guard is all steel and not brass and the brass handle is of rope work pattern and a bit different The protective bars are a lot different as well So it is not a M1751 but would anyone be able to give me any further information on this sword. If no further identification can be made would anyone hazard a guess on the age of the sword? blade length is 24.5 inches any corrections to my above assumptions gratefully accepted Thanks in advance Ken Attached Images

30th May 2014, 10:30 AM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Jim/Norman, Thanks for your interest and knowledge. I knew absolutley nothing about this sword when i purchased it. I have Robinson's book and recogonised it as a hanger and took a punt at the sword, 1788 and 1796 LC are more my main collecting area so i decided to try and get an earlier sword. I have attached the photos the auctioneer sent on to me so you can see it was in a rough enough shape but I taught it might be decent enough under all the obvious rust. Jim, the guard is heart shaped like M M1741's and M1751's but the all steel handguard as you note is a little different. Cleaning is now finished so the platina is safe, it looks a bit red in the photos but in the hand, I am happy I have all the active rust removed A sword I am happy to have and at a very reasonable price, i think, my wife might differ. Best regards to all Ken Attached Images

29th May 2014, 06:59 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Ken, Its been a long time since looking into these old British patterns, especially with the hangers so I'll need to retrieve some of the books now buried here in the Bookmobile. I will say that this is 'of the type' of the British hangers which became known as the M1851 and I believe there was another a little earlier if memory serves. These were based largely on extant German patterns.The use of the so called Passau wolf had ceased in Germany by the 18th century but Samuel Harvey (indeed a maker associated with these) had adopted the mark as a 'quality' reference alluding to the well known German makers in Hounslow and Shotley Bridge of the previous century. The rather arbitrary model or pattern designations were derived much later by collectors using old artwork (Dighton uniform prints I believe and others). Establishing 'patterns' or 'model numbers' was achieved usually by using these old artworks and in many cases military regulations and orders reviewed in later years by researchers and collectors. A most helpful reference is "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann, and of course the venerable "Swords of the British Army" by Brian Robson, both the old 1975 version and better revised version. One of the best references on British cavalry is the recently released book by Richard Dellar.

30th May 2014, 03:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Norman, Thank you so much for showing us that example, and for the note on the adaptions often used as these hangers were in service. I have finally excavated my copy of 'Neumann' and looking into the examples seen have revealed that the 'M1742' and 'M1751' were indeed as I noted, give these classifications by later collectors using period artwork as a guide. While some of these hangers were made in Germany, most were British and it seems these guards were typically in a 'heart shape' though quite similar to this one, and invariably in brass (both '1742; and '1751') . The so called '1742' (Neumann 10.S) gained that classification from its representation in painting in the Duke of Cumberlands 'Representation of His Majesty's Forces' of that year. Hangers of this form (no branches on guard) ranged from 1725-50. It should of course be remembered that the blades used in these hangers were often rehilted or used for various models from stores. Example 12.S (p.65) is English c.1735-55, and appears most like this example of Ken's with the exception it is like the others, with brass hilt. Here it is noted that it is a pattern used by grenadiers of the 3rd Regiment of Foot as seen in one of David Morier's paintings of 1751. In this case the single branch on the hilt is present. In similar instance, (Neumann 19.S) is another of these hangers, but with two branches , and seen in the Morier 1751 paintings, here noting that this two branch example is the one which became known as the M1751. The range on these is shown as 1750-1768 and these were used extensively in the French-Indian and Revolutionary Wars. This and several examples shown in Neumann all have blades by Samuel Harvey of Birmingham, and with similar fuller along back edge and are marked with the running wolf mark. It seems to me that the Samuel Harvey blades with running wolf were prevalent right at about mid 18th century, and must have been in considerable volume with this single fuller against back of the blade. It is hard to guage of course whether these were in their original hilts or mounted as others were produced or refurbished. The running wolf was adopted by Harvey as noted, in my opinion reflecting the earlier German blades made in England (bushy tail as opposed to thin tail on Germany forms earlier). What seems important is this unusual iron guard as opposed to the prevalent brass guards. The only two examples with iron were one quite early 18th c. and another . 1740s. Obviously a variant using a Harvey blade, this most resembles the M1751 as with branch on the guard, and probably for grenadiers or fusiliers of the 1740-50 period. These type hangers were in use long before the artwork of 1740s and 50s, and the Harvey blades c.1750. Beautifully patinated, please leave as except removing active rust as has been done.

30th May 2014, 05:03 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I'm with you Ken.......British cavalry swords are among the most intriguing forms (have you gotten Richard Dellar's new book yet?) and the M1788 and M1796 are most interesting as the first unofficial and official 'patterns'. Absolutely superb job of conserving this very attractive British hanger, and this does seem a good example of a variation which was probably fashioned in England around the 1740s. It is tempting to think of it possibly as a prototype for the two branch form recognized as the 'M1751', but in those times independent makers of course deviated considerably. This was of course more likely for hilts fashioned from iron as opposed obviously to the cast brass hilts which predominated these hangers. As noted, the still somewhat discernible 'fox' marking was used by Samuel Harvey and it seems typically his initials were incorporated into the mark. In this case, though the initials I presume are not visible, it still seems I can see the brushier tail characteristic of the English versions of the 'running wolf'. An excellent acquisition Ken! and astutely recognized despite its rough condition. While many of these kinds of hangers were so widely produced and many of almost munitions category, this one is far 'off the beaten path' and is tempting to consider it was possibly an officers.

30th May 2014, 05:37 PM	#7
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Jim Thanks for putting the Officer idea in my head! Brass was a lot more expensive than steel in those days though so I would have imagined the Officer would have gone for a bit of "Bling" I suppose we will never know. The sword is nice to hold in the hand but very tight with the guard wrapping around the knuckles. I was thinking about Normans sword and the bars removed, I wonder is it a later adaptation as peoples hands got bigger as nutrition improved and removing the guard was the only way to keep these types of sword servicable, especially with a gloved hand. Richard Dellar's book is on my wish list but another one of my areas of interest is WWI and before imperial German/Austrian empire bayonets and I am finding a few of the very elusive ones of these coming up for sale. But a good book will pay its way back so a decision will have to be made. Best regards, Ken