1735 Bicol ba'id chopper

manteris1 · 25th May 2014, 04:22 PM

well done.......................jimmy

David · 25th May 2014, 05:00 PM

That is a seriously beautiful thing José.
Any thoughts on who engraved the date or why? Seems likely it would have been a European hand, especially with the addition of "AD", which i assume is "Anno Domini" (though i suppose it could be someone's initials). If this is a date of collection i suppose the piece might even be a little older.

Battara · 26th May 2014, 02:36 AM

The dimensions are from ears to the end of the blade is roughly 11 inches and the width of the blade at the front where the crescent is measures roughly 2 3/8 inches. It is a very heavy piece too.

David on your note on the date inscription, by this time there was a lot of Spanish influence when it came to European engraving and in the mid and northern parts of the Philippines under Spanish rule, Filipinos were taught the arts of European engraving. Of course it is also possible that a Spanish hand did this for a subsequent Spanish owner of this or Filipino data as well.

Again thank you folks for your feedback.

Took a while in between working on other people's jobs.

On other note: Robert, there may have been a silver plate on top of the exposed round tang sticking out between the ears. The only problem is that I don't see any nail holes to indicate one was present.

I will leave this alone for now until I see something that proves otherwise (nail holes, research, etc). If you folks come up with any, please enlighten me........

Robert · 26th May 2014, 11:36 AM

Hi Jose, I would guess that the butt plate would have been a small piece of either silver or brass. It would have been fit over the round end of the tang and would have rested against the shoulder were it has been filed from square to round. The cross pattern on the very end of the tang would have been made by a small chisel and was meant to expand the end of the tang to secure the plate. By looking at the photos I would guess the the plate might have been kind of egg shaped with the whole drilled toward the center of the wider end. I do not believe that any nails were ever used to help hold the plate in place, but that it was held in place only by the expansion of the metal caused by the cross pattern being stamped into the end. I would also think that to make the plate more decorative it would have been incised with line patterns to match the ones carved into the horn around it. JMHO.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 26th May 2014, 04:17 PM

Agree with Robert,

there has been most proable a butt plate. But I think this will be a difficult undertaking to replace this butt plate since the construction is like Robert explained. But maybe this plate can be glued.

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 8th June 2014, 07:22 AM

After your advice and my consultation with Miguel Diaz, I designed and made a plate for the top based on the floral motifs already present. I did have to make 3 silver nails to pin it down to the top, but made a hole to integrate the tang into the design, close to what it may have been.

Miguel Diaz also thinks that the "s"s on the blade probably represent nagas (which I agree) and the top plate in the form of a triangle is to represent a mountain, sacred to our ancestors.

Sajen · 8th June 2014, 09:32 AM

Look good! And the pictures good as well!

And again, what a beautiful chopper!

I have asked in up already, are there other ba'id choppers to show?

Regards,
Detlef

8th June 2014, 07:22 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	After your advice and my consultation with Miguel Diaz, I designed and made a plate for the top based on the floral motifs already present. I did have to make 3 silver nails to pin it down to the top, but made a hole to integrate the tang into the design, close to what it may have been. Miguel Diaz also thinks that the "s"s on the blade probably represent nagas (which I agree) and the top plate in the form of a triangle is to represent a mountain, sacred to our ancestors. Attached Images

25th May 2014, 04:22 PM	#1
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	well done.......................jimmy

25th May 2014, 05:00 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	That is a seriously beautiful thing José. Any thoughts on who engraved the date or why? Seems likely it would have been a European hand, especially with the addition of "AD", which i assume is "Anno Domini" (though i suppose it could be someone's initials). If this is a date of collection i suppose the piece might even be a little older.

26th May 2014, 02:36 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	The dimensions are from ears to the end of the blade is roughly 11 inches and the width of the blade at the front where the crescent is measures roughly 2 3/8 inches. It is a very heavy piece too. David on your note on the date inscription, by this time there was a lot of Spanish influence when it came to European engraving and in the mid and northern parts of the Philippines under Spanish rule, Filipinos were taught the arts of European engraving. Of course it is also possible that a Spanish hand did this for a subsequent Spanish owner of this or Filipino data as well. Again thank you folks for your feedback. Took a while in between working on other people's jobs. On other note: Robert, there may have been a silver plate on top of the exposed round tang sticking out between the ears. The only problem is that I don't see any nail holes to indicate one was present. I will leave this alone for now until I see something that proves otherwise (nail holes, research, etc). If you folks come up with any, please enlighten me........

26th May 2014, 11:36 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, I would guess that the butt plate would have been a small piece of either silver or brass. It would have been fit over the round end of the tang and would have rested against the shoulder were it has been filed from square to round. The cross pattern on the very end of the tang would have been made by a small chisel and was meant to expand the end of the tang to secure the plate. By looking at the photos I would guess the the plate might have been kind of egg shaped with the whole drilled toward the center of the wider end. I do not believe that any nails were ever used to help hold the plate in place, but that it was held in place only by the expansion of the metal caused by the cross pattern being stamped into the end. I would also think that to make the plate more decorative it would have been incised with line patterns to match the ones carved into the horn around it. JMHO. Best, Robert

26th May 2014, 04:17 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Agree with Robert, there has been most proable a butt plate. But I think this will be a difficult undertaking to replace this butt plate since the construction is like Robert explained. But maybe this plate can be glued. Regards, Detlef

8th June 2014, 09:32 AM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Look good! And the pictures good as well! And again, what a beautiful chopper! I have asked in up already, are there other ba'id choppers to show? Regards, Detlef