Ivory Fist Dagger - Katipunan?

David · 16th May 2014, 04:24 PM

José, is it possible to upload better files of the hilt. The photography is fine, but you images are pixelated, probably due to improper sizing along the way. I would like to see some larger images w/o pixelation to more clearly see the surface finish on the ivory. Thanks!

Battara · 16th May 2014, 07:01 PM

Thanks guys for your input.

Robert: Like David I do see patina on the ivory, darker color in places along with dirt in the crack.

David: These pictures came from the auction site. I wish I had better and bigger pictures, but alas this is all I have. If it were mine, that might be a different story..........

Robert · 16th May 2014, 09:22 PM

I know it has some patina on the hilt as even by my estimation of its age it could still be 60-70 years old. What I do not see is a patina that would (at least to me) be consistent with something that would be 100 + years of age. At the same time someone could have used a cleaner with alcohol in it on the hilt which could explain why it looks the way it does. I base my estimate of age of the hilt more on the style of the carving than anything else.

David · 16th May 2014, 11:15 PM

Can you show us any similar contemporary hilts for comparison Robert?
As for patina, i don't thing this images are clear and sharp enough to make too many guesses on age. Is this not in you hands yet José?
Ivory will discolor differently in different environments and with different amounts of handling. I would still like to see clearer, larger, closer, more detailed photos.

Battara · 17th May 2014, 12:11 AM

No David, I did not get this.

Robert, you do have a good point. There are some examples of WWII fist horn hilts. I think it is older than the 1960s, but there is a possibility that it is post Katipunan.

Robert · 17th May 2014, 07:35 AM

David, I do not usually save photos of anything newer than the 1940's (and very few of those) but I will look through my albums and see what I can find. Most of the later form of fist hilts that I have seen have been on various auction sites and estate sales. I have seen them on what I would call "semi transitional and semi traditional" pieces, even talibongs, barongs and just about any other form of Philippine edged weapon. Most of the later ones that I have seen have been made from either horn or wood but I have also seen them in brass and aluminum. I have even seen a hinalung mounted with a fist hilt.

Almost all of the ones that I have seen seem to fall into the "made for those who travel" category and again that is why I do not usually save the photos.

Jose, I agree that this was made before the the 1960's and it could possibly date as far back as the 30's but, I have yet to see a fist carved in this style that was any older than the 40's. There have been so many Philippine weapons coming out of closets and other hiding places and onto the market lately that there is the possibility that one hilted like this with provenance that dates it back to the 30's or earlier will show up. It is just too bad that there a no other photos of this dagger and hilt that are clearer than the ones above.

16th May 2014, 04:24 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	José, is it possible to upload better files of the hilt. The photography is fine, but you images are pixelated, probably due to improper sizing along the way. I would like to see some larger images w/o pixelation to more clearly see the surface finish on the ivory. Thanks!

16th May 2014, 07:01 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thanks guys for your input. Robert: Like David I do see patina on the ivory, darker color in places along with dirt in the crack. David: These pictures came from the auction site. I wish I had better and bigger pictures, but alas this is all I have. If it were mine, that might be a different story..........

16th May 2014, 09:22 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I know it has some patina on the hilt as even by my estimation of its age it could still be 60-70 years old. What I do not see is a patina that would (at least to me) be consistent with something that would be 100 + years of age. At the same time someone could have used a cleaner with alcohol in it on the hilt which could explain why it looks the way it does. I base my estimate of age of the hilt more on the style of the carving than anything else.

16th May 2014, 11:15 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Can you show us any similar contemporary hilts for comparison Robert? As for patina, i don't thing this images are clear and sharp enough to make too many guesses on age. Is this not in you hands yet José? Ivory will discolor differently in different environments and with different amounts of handling. I would still like to see clearer, larger, closer, more detailed photos.

17th May 2014, 12:11 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	No David, I did not get this. Robert, you do have a good point. There are some examples of WWII fist horn hilts. I think it is older than the 1960s, but there is a possibility that it is post Katipunan.

17th May 2014, 07:35 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	David, I do not usually save photos of anything newer than the 1940's (and very few of those) but I will look through my albums and see what I can find. Most of the later form of fist hilts that I have seen have been on various auction sites and estate sales. I have seen them on what I would call "semi transitional and semi traditional" pieces, even talibongs, barongs and just about any other form of Philippine edged weapon. Most of the later ones that I have seen have been made from either horn or wood but I have also seen them in brass and aluminum. I have even seen a hinalung mounted with a fist hilt. Almost all of the ones that I have seen seem to fall into the "made for those who travel" category and again that is why I do not usually save the photos. Jose, I agree that this was made before the the 1960's and it could possibly date as far back as the 30's but, I have yet to see a fist carved in this style that was any older than the 40's. There have been so many Philippine weapons coming out of closets and other hiding places and onto the market lately that there is the possibility that one hilted like this with provenance that dates it back to the 30's or earlier will show up. It is just too bad that there a no other photos of this dagger and hilt that are clearer than the ones above.