Ivory Fist Dagger - Katipunan?

Robert · 15th May 2014, 07:05 PM

Hello Jose, Everything about this looks like older Philippine work to me "except" the pinning (if it in fact does go through the tang) and the hilt carving. The poor quality of the carving makes me think that if this is Philippine that the hilt was most likely made post WWII as a replacement as everything else looks much older. These are just my opinions and I could easily be completely wrong but, it could also explain the pinning as I have been seeing more and more of it being used on newer Philippine blades of older styling coming up for sale lately. Are you sure that the pins go completely through the hilt and tang and are not just decoration set into the ivory?

Rick, All of the figa charms that I have seen have the thumb protruding out between the fingers and not in the clenched fist manner with the thumb laid along side the fingers. The figa charm I believe was more for good luck and fertility while the clenched fist was more a symbol of defiance and solidarity.
As I said above, I could be completely wrong about this also.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 15th May 2014, 11:52 PM

Robert you could be onto something. That might explain the rivets, assuming that this is even Philippine. The sheath form does look more Philippine, just like the leather ones. Certainly this fist is more stylized than those typical of the turn of the century.

David · 16th May 2014, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Everything about this looks like older Philippine work to me "except" the pinning (if it in fact does go through the tang) and the hilt carving. The poor quality of the carving makes me think that if this is Philippine that the hilt was most likely made post WWII as a replacement as everything else looks much older.

I wouldn't call this a "poor quality" carving Robert. As José suggests, i think "stylized" is a better word. I haven't spent too much time studying this form, but i have seen some of the more realistic depictions of hands on these knives, but i'm not sure that necessarily counts this hilt out as a genuinely old example. It certainly has a very lovely patina that does not look to be artificial to my eyes. Is it possible that some more stylized versions of these hilts were also carved at the time?
I can't be certain without the knife in hand, but the pins look more decorative than functional to me. The ones on the palm of the hand are certainly only decorative which seems to re-enforce the possibility that all the pins are.

Robert · 16th May 2014, 02:29 AM

Hello David, Maybe it's the photos or maybe it's my eyes but I really don't see that much patina on the hilt. I agree that it would be much easier to make a judgment call on this piece if one had the knife in hand. It does have a bit of cracking but that could have been caused by poor storage in a hot dry attic as easily as by age shrinkage or rust build-up on the tang. Stylized might have been a better word to describe the carving than poor but I still think that the hilt is from WWII or later for the same reason. The style just does not match up to any of the true older examples that I have seen so far but, does for later pieces.

David · 16th May 2014, 04:24 PM

José, is it possible to upload better files of the hilt. The photography is fine, but you images are pixelated, probably due to improper sizing along the way. I would like to see some larger images w/o pixelation to more clearly see the surface finish on the ivory. Thanks!

Battara · 16th May 2014, 07:01 PM

Thanks guys for your input.

Robert: Like David I do see patina on the ivory, darker color in places along with dirt in the crack.

David: These pictures came from the auction site. I wish I had better and bigger pictures, but alas this is all I have. If it were mine, that might be a different story..........

Robert · 16th May 2014, 09:22 PM

I know it has some patina on the hilt as even by my estimation of its age it could still be 60-70 years old. What I do not see is a patina that would (at least to me) be consistent with something that would be 100 + years of age. At the same time someone could have used a cleaner with alcohol in it on the hilt which could explain why it looks the way it does. I base my estimate of age of the hilt more on the style of the carving than anything else.

David · 16th May 2014, 11:15 PM

Can you show us any similar contemporary hilts for comparison Robert?
As for patina, i don't thing this images are clear and sharp enough to make too many guesses on age. Is this not in you hands yet José?
Ivory will discolor differently in different environments and with different amounts of handling. I would still like to see clearer, larger, closer, more detailed photos.

15th May 2014, 07:05 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Jose, Everything about this looks like older Philippine work to me "except" the pinning (if it in fact does go through the tang) and the hilt carving. The poor quality of the carving makes me think that if this is Philippine that the hilt was most likely made post WWII as a replacement as everything else looks much older. These are just my opinions and I could easily be completely wrong but, it could also explain the pinning as I have been seeing more and more of it being used on newer Philippine blades of older styling coming up for sale lately. Are you sure that the pins go completely through the hilt and tang and are not just decoration set into the ivory? Rick, All of the figa charms that I have seen have the thumb protruding out between the fingers and not in the clenched fist manner with the thumb laid along side the fingers. The figa charm I believe was more for good luck and fertility while the clenched fist was more a symbol of defiance and solidarity. As I said above, I could be completely wrong about this also. Best, Robert

15th May 2014, 11:52 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Robert you could be onto something. That might explain the rivets, assuming that this is even Philippine. The sheath form does look more Philippine, just like the leather ones. Certainly this fist is more stylized than those typical of the turn of the century.

16th May 2014, 02:29 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello David, Maybe it's the photos or maybe it's my eyes but I really don't see that much patina on the hilt. I agree that it would be much easier to make a judgment call on this piece if one had the knife in hand. It does have a bit of cracking but that could have been caused by poor storage in a hot dry attic as easily as by age shrinkage or rust build-up on the tang. Stylized might have been a better word to describe the carving than poor but I still think that the hilt is from WWII or later for the same reason. The style just does not match up to any of the true older examples that I have seen so far but, does for later pieces.

16th May 2014, 04:24 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	José, is it possible to upload better files of the hilt. The photography is fine, but you images are pixelated, probably due to improper sizing along the way. I would like to see some larger images w/o pixelation to more clearly see the surface finish on the ivory. Thanks!

16th May 2014, 07:01 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thanks guys for your input. Robert: Like David I do see patina on the ivory, darker color in places along with dirt in the crack. David: These pictures came from the auction site. I wish I had better and bigger pictures, but alas this is all I have. If it were mine, that might be a different story..........

16th May 2014, 09:22 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I know it has some patina on the hilt as even by my estimation of its age it could still be 60-70 years old. What I do not see is a patina that would (at least to me) be consistent with something that would be 100 + years of age. At the same time someone could have used a cleaner with alcohol in it on the hilt which could explain why it looks the way it does. I base my estimate of age of the hilt more on the style of the carving than anything else.

16th May 2014, 11:15 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Can you show us any similar contemporary hilts for comparison Robert? As for patina, i don't thing this images are clear and sharp enough to make too many guesses on age. Is this not in you hands yet José? Ivory will discolor differently in different environments and with different amounts of handling. I would still like to see clearer, larger, closer, more detailed photos.