Interesting Tulwar Sword With Ottoman Turkish Blade

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 09:18 PM

Actually I have heard the name Baroda many times over the years, mostly with reference to British Raj oriented references from administrative perspective, and honestly never new exactly where it was. I must admit I appreciated the material added Ibrahiim, and also admit that Wikipedia has become sort of a first hit source for me as well. Once I have read whatever material is there I can use it as a benchmark to pursue further as required.

I am constantly amazed that so many people simply don't look things up.so really this data just saved a step for me, and provided data those others would typically not seek.

This tulwar truly is amazing so I also hope we will focus on that. The blade is not only unusual in being a pala blade, and the polish achieved by Philip as always well illustrates why he is a legend with his masterful work .

The hilt also appears to be a superb example of 'bidri' work, with the dramatic dark background and silver.

Emanuel · 7th May 2014, 09:58 PM

Lovely sword Charles!! ~10 twist rods?

Hi Jim, I thought of Hyderabad when I saw the bidri handle. The Nizams of Hyderabad had strong links with the Ottoman court so maybe a connection there.

This hilt is spectacular though, with very heavy and thick application of silver. I don't recall seeing anything of this type in Hyderabad, usually the silver is not so raised and not so thickly applied.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 11:54 PM

Good point Emanuel! there were indeed strong Ottoman influences in the Mughal Sultanates. If I understand correctly even the shape of the quillon terminals in the rounded end on the familiar Indo-Persian tulwar hilts are Ottoman inspired.
I think Jens has probably the best knowledge of the Bidri work, and though I think it was Rajasthan regional style originally, it became of course more widely seen eventually.

I'm curious about why the Baroda seal or device is etched into the blade. Perhaps this was a diplomatic presentation to an influential individual?
It seems to me there were a good number of British businesses and concerns there and if memory serves there were even swords on British M1853 pattern made by a firm called Rodwell & Co there. I believe these large businesses maintained their own police and security forces, as was apparently a circumstance in many of the provincial areas.

Runjeet Singh · 8th May 2014, 02:52 PM

Beautiful sword Charles, nice to have an Indian marking on a (sunning) Turkish blade as well.

Your post coincides with some research I am doing in regards to the relationships with India and Turkey. Namely Hyderabad Royalty marrying Turkish royalty.

Pictured below is an image from the national Portrait Gallery, London. Pictured is Nawab Azam Jah, Prince of Berar (1907-1970), Son of the Nizam of Hyderabad, his wife, Princess Durruhsehvar, Princess of Berar (1914-2006), and the Princesses father, Caliph Abdulmecid Khan II of Turkey (1868-1944).

A friend recently told me about another recent Hyderabad/Turkish Royal marriage, but I am yet to chase that lead up.

Hope that is of some interest.

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

CharlesS · 8th May 2014, 03:15 PM

Interesting stuff Runjeet, and that is some suit the prince is wearing!!

This certainly coincides with some earlier comments.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th May 2014, 04:09 PM

Its an interesting sword you have, and worth researching.
Jim is right, the hilt is Rajasthani, but the decoration has nothing to do with Bidri work.
Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware, inlaid metalwork from India. Victoria and Albert Museum 1985.

Emanuel · 8th May 2014, 04:10 PM

Hello,

Jim, I believe bidriware originated in Bidar, on the border of modern day Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh. It would have been part of the Nizam's Hyderabad State.

Runjeet, when I was in Hyderabad I heard that the Ottoman Sultan had high hopes at the turn of the 20th century for the marriages with the Nizam's family as it would provide access to enormous wealth to fund the Empire's modernization and renewal. For context, the 8th Nizam's fortune was estimated at ~$200 billion in the 1960s, making him something like the 6th richest man in history.

Similarly, the Nizams wanted the link to the Empire and the Sultanate, before its abolishment.

I do recall seeing Ottoman kilij in the Nizam's arms collection
.

Charles, I don't know how this ties into Baroda State and I don't want to push the Hyderabad angle too much if it's a dead end, but it illustrates India's ready access to Ottoman blades.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2014, 07:30 PM

Thanks guys, and Jens thank you for the correction on the bidri suggestion.
I have always had problems in understanding some of these processes and metallurgy etc. Actually I thought that the bidri process was alternate to koftgari as it was black against silver as opposed to koftgari being gold.

I find that in the Wiki entry it is an blackened alloy of zinc and copper where patterns are carved into the darkened metal and silver in inlaid by being hammered into the grooves carved by stylus. Apparantly the soil indigenous to regions around Bidar (where the technique originated in 13th c.) is mixed with ammonium chloride leaving the bright silver against a matte black background.

It has been mentioned to me that in the case of this hilt, it is silver koftgari, not Bidri work .

I understand that koftari is gold metal hammered into grooves , but bidri is silver hammered into grooves.

Is there some better explanation as to what the differences are? If bidri is silver against black background and silver koftgari is silver over a black background, what is different?

Emanuel, as you have well noted, the presence of Ottoman influence was prevalent in Mughal courts, and diplomatically oriented arms must have certainly been well known. What is most interesting is this thoroughly British seal added to this remarkable blade.

7th May 2014, 09:18 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Actually I have heard the name Baroda many times over the years, mostly with reference to British Raj oriented references from administrative perspective, and honestly never new exactly where it was. I must admit I appreciated the material added Ibrahiim, and also admit that Wikipedia has become sort of a first hit source for me as well. Once I have read whatever material is there I can use it as a benchmark to pursue further as required. I am constantly amazed that so many people simply don't look things up.so really this data just saved a step for me, and provided data those others would typically not seek. This tulwar truly is amazing so I also hope we will focus on that. The blade is not only unusual in being a pala blade, and the polish achieved by Philip as always well illustrates why he is a legend with his masterful work . The hilt also appears to be a superb example of 'bidri' work, with the dramatic dark background and silver.

7th May 2014, 09:58 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Lovely sword Charles!! ~10 twist rods? Hi Jim, I thought of Hyderabad when I saw the bidri handle. The Nizams of Hyderabad had strong links with the Ottoman court so maybe a connection there. This hilt is spectacular though, with very heavy and thick application of silver. I don't recall seeing anything of this type in Hyderabad, usually the silver is not so raised and not so thickly applied. Emanuel

7th May 2014, 11:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Good point Emanuel! there were indeed strong Ottoman influences in the Mughal Sultanates. If I understand correctly even the shape of the quillon terminals in the rounded end on the familiar Indo-Persian tulwar hilts are Ottoman inspired. I think Jens has probably the best knowledge of the Bidri work, and though I think it was Rajasthan regional style originally, it became of course more widely seen eventually. I'm curious about why the Baroda seal or device is etched into the blade. Perhaps this was a diplomatic presentation to an influential individual? It seems to me there were a good number of British businesses and concerns there and if memory serves there were even swords on British M1853 pattern made by a firm called Rodwell & Co there. I believe these large businesses maintained their own police and security forces, as was apparently a circumstance in many of the provincial areas.

8th May 2014, 02:52 PM	#4
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Beautiful sword Charles, nice to have an Indian marking on a (sunning) Turkish blade as well. Your post coincides with some research I am doing in regards to the relationships with India and Turkey. Namely Hyderabad Royalty marrying Turkish royalty. Pictured below is an image from the national Portrait Gallery, London. Pictured is Nawab Azam Jah, Prince of Berar (1907-1970), Son of the Nizam of Hyderabad, his wife, Princess Durruhsehvar, Princess of Berar (1914-2006), and the Princesses father, Caliph Abdulmecid Khan II of Turkey (1868-1944). A friend recently told me about another recent Hyderabad/Turkish Royal marriage, but I am yet to chase that lead up. Hope that is of some interest. Kind Regards, Runjeet

8th May 2014, 03:15 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Interesting stuff Runjeet, and that is some suit the prince is wearing!! This certainly coincides with some earlier comments.

8th May 2014, 04:09 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Its an interesting sword you have, and worth researching. Jim is right, the hilt is Rajasthani, but the decoration has nothing to do with Bidri work. Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware, inlaid metalwork from India. Victoria and Albert Museum 1985.

8th May 2014, 04:10 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Jim, I believe bidriware originated in Bidar, on the border of modern day Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh. It would have been part of the Nizam's Hyderabad State. Runjeet, when I was in Hyderabad I heard that the Ottoman Sultan had high hopes at the turn of the 20th century for the marriages with the Nizam's family as it would provide access to enormous wealth to fund the Empire's modernization and renewal. For context, the 8th Nizam's fortune was estimated at ~$200 billion in the 1960s, making him something like the 6th richest man in history. Similarly, the Nizams wanted the link to the Empire and the Sultanate, before its abolishment. I do recall seeing Ottoman kilij in the Nizam's arms collection . Charles, I don't know how this ties into Baroda State and I don't want to push the Hyderabad angle too much if it's a dead end, but it illustrates India's ready access to Ottoman blades. Emanuel

8th May 2014, 07:30 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thanks guys, and Jens thank you for the correction on the bidri suggestion. I have always had problems in understanding some of these processes and metallurgy etc. Actually I thought that the bidri process was alternate to koftgari as it was black against silver as opposed to koftgari being gold. I find that in the Wiki entry it is an blackened alloy of zinc and copper where patterns are carved into the darkened metal and silver in inlaid by being hammered into the grooves carved by stylus. Apparantly the soil indigenous to regions around Bidar (where the technique originated in 13th c.) is mixed with ammonium chloride leaving the bright silver against a matte black background. It has been mentioned to me that in the case of this hilt, it is silver koftgari, not Bidri work . I understand that koftari is gold metal hammered into grooves , but bidri is silver hammered into grooves. Is there some better explanation as to what the differences are? If bidri is silver against black background and silver koftgari is silver over a black background, what is different? Emanuel, as you have well noted, the presence of Ottoman influence was prevalent in Mughal courts, and diplomatically oriented arms must have certainly been well known. What is most interesting is this thoroughly British seal added to this remarkable blade.