Interesting Tulwar Sword With Ottoman Turkish Blade

CharlesS · 7th May 2014, 06:35 PM

Ibrahim,

Thanks for your input minus the 'snark'. Of course comments of a pertinent nature are welcomed, I just didn't see what those two threads have to do with the original one, or how they are related at all.

BTW, you ADDED/EDITED IN the map and info on the state AFTER your last post.

I welcome you to add anything regarding Baroda that has not already been mentioned, or certainly anything regarding the sword or others pertinent to it. I do hope you will not simply 'cut and paste' Wikipedia articles or the like.

The thread was not designed to be controversial, just trying to share my passion for cross cultural blades.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th May 2014, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Ibrahim,

Thanks for your input minus the 'snark'. Of course comments of a pertinent nature are welcomed, I just didn't see what those two threads have to do with the original one, or how they are related at all.

BTW, you added the map AFTER your last post.

I welcome you to add anything regarding Baroda that has not already been mentioned, or certainly anything regarding the swords or others pertinent to it. I do hope you will not simply 'cut and paste' Wikipedia articles or the like.

The thread was not designed to be controversial, just trying to share my passion for cross cultural blades.

Salaams What is a snark...? some sort of acidic remark perhaps...? Cut and paste is often the best way to explain quickly to people what is going on instead of assuming everyone knows the place is now called Vadodora... I certainly didnt... and if you read my post it did say I was still working on it... so perhaps before jumping in you may have held off for a while while it developed...Anyway ...lets put the snarks aside shall we?... and fill the thread with detail about your great sword... over to you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 09:18 PM

Actually I have heard the name Baroda many times over the years, mostly with reference to British Raj oriented references from administrative perspective, and honestly never new exactly where it was. I must admit I appreciated the material added Ibrahiim, and also admit that Wikipedia has become sort of a first hit source for me as well. Once I have read whatever material is there I can use it as a benchmark to pursue further as required.

I am constantly amazed that so many people simply don't look things up.so really this data just saved a step for me, and provided data those others would typically not seek.

This tulwar truly is amazing so I also hope we will focus on that. The blade is not only unusual in being a pala blade, and the polish achieved by Philip as always well illustrates why he is a legend with his masterful work .

The hilt also appears to be a superb example of 'bidri' work, with the dramatic dark background and silver.

Emanuel · 7th May 2014, 09:58 PM

Lovely sword Charles!! ~10 twist rods?

Hi Jim, I thought of Hyderabad when I saw the bidri handle. The Nizams of Hyderabad had strong links with the Ottoman court so maybe a connection there.

This hilt is spectacular though, with very heavy and thick application of silver. I don't recall seeing anything of this type in Hyderabad, usually the silver is not so raised and not so thickly applied.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 11:54 PM

Good point Emanuel! there were indeed strong Ottoman influences in the Mughal Sultanates. If I understand correctly even the shape of the quillon terminals in the rounded end on the familiar Indo-Persian tulwar hilts are Ottoman inspired.
I think Jens has probably the best knowledge of the Bidri work, and though I think it was Rajasthan regional style originally, it became of course more widely seen eventually.

I'm curious about why the Baroda seal or device is etched into the blade. Perhaps this was a diplomatic presentation to an influential individual?
It seems to me there were a good number of British businesses and concerns there and if memory serves there were even swords on British M1853 pattern made by a firm called Rodwell & Co there. I believe these large businesses maintained their own police and security forces, as was apparently a circumstance in many of the provincial areas.

Runjeet Singh · 8th May 2014, 02:52 PM

Beautiful sword Charles, nice to have an Indian marking on a (sunning) Turkish blade as well.

Your post coincides with some research I am doing in regards to the relationships with India and Turkey. Namely Hyderabad Royalty marrying Turkish royalty.

Pictured below is an image from the national Portrait Gallery, London. Pictured is Nawab Azam Jah, Prince of Berar (1907-1970), Son of the Nizam of Hyderabad, his wife, Princess Durruhsehvar, Princess of Berar (1914-2006), and the Princesses father, Caliph Abdulmecid Khan II of Turkey (1868-1944).

A friend recently told me about another recent Hyderabad/Turkish Royal marriage, but I am yet to chase that lead up.

Hope that is of some interest.

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

CharlesS · 8th May 2014, 03:15 PM

Interesting stuff Runjeet, and that is some suit the prince is wearing!!

This certainly coincides with some earlier comments.

7th May 2014, 06:35 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Ibrahim, Thanks for your input minus the 'snark'. Of course comments of a pertinent nature are welcomed, I just didn't see what those two threads have to do with the original one, or how they are related at all. BTW, you ADDED/EDITED IN the map and info on the state AFTER your last post. I welcome you to add anything regarding Baroda that has not already been mentioned, or certainly anything regarding the sword or others pertinent to it. I do hope you will not simply 'cut and paste' Wikipedia articles or the like. The thread was not designed to be controversial, just trying to share my passion for cross cultural blades. Last edited by CharlesS; 7th May 2014 at 07:16 PM.

7th May 2014, 09:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Actually I have heard the name Baroda many times over the years, mostly with reference to British Raj oriented references from administrative perspective, and honestly never new exactly where it was. I must admit I appreciated the material added Ibrahiim, and also admit that Wikipedia has become sort of a first hit source for me as well. Once I have read whatever material is there I can use it as a benchmark to pursue further as required. I am constantly amazed that so many people simply don't look things up.so really this data just saved a step for me, and provided data those others would typically not seek. This tulwar truly is amazing so I also hope we will focus on that. The blade is not only unusual in being a pala blade, and the polish achieved by Philip as always well illustrates why he is a legend with his masterful work . The hilt also appears to be a superb example of 'bidri' work, with the dramatic dark background and silver.

7th May 2014, 09:58 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Lovely sword Charles!! ~10 twist rods? Hi Jim, I thought of Hyderabad when I saw the bidri handle. The Nizams of Hyderabad had strong links with the Ottoman court so maybe a connection there. This hilt is spectacular though, with very heavy and thick application of silver. I don't recall seeing anything of this type in Hyderabad, usually the silver is not so raised and not so thickly applied. Emanuel

7th May 2014, 11:54 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Good point Emanuel! there were indeed strong Ottoman influences in the Mughal Sultanates. If I understand correctly even the shape of the quillon terminals in the rounded end on the familiar Indo-Persian tulwar hilts are Ottoman inspired. I think Jens has probably the best knowledge of the Bidri work, and though I think it was Rajasthan regional style originally, it became of course more widely seen eventually. I'm curious about why the Baroda seal or device is etched into the blade. Perhaps this was a diplomatic presentation to an influential individual? It seems to me there were a good number of British businesses and concerns there and if memory serves there were even swords on British M1853 pattern made by a firm called Rodwell & Co there. I believe these large businesses maintained their own police and security forces, as was apparently a circumstance in many of the provincial areas.

8th May 2014, 02:52 PM	#6
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Beautiful sword Charles, nice to have an Indian marking on a (sunning) Turkish blade as well. Your post coincides with some research I am doing in regards to the relationships with India and Turkey. Namely Hyderabad Royalty marrying Turkish royalty. Pictured below is an image from the national Portrait Gallery, London. Pictured is Nawab Azam Jah, Prince of Berar (1907-1970), Son of the Nizam of Hyderabad, his wife, Princess Durruhsehvar, Princess of Berar (1914-2006), and the Princesses father, Caliph Abdulmecid Khan II of Turkey (1868-1944). A friend recently told me about another recent Hyderabad/Turkish Royal marriage, but I am yet to chase that lead up. Hope that is of some interest. Kind Regards, Runjeet

8th May 2014, 03:15 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Interesting stuff Runjeet, and that is some suit the prince is wearing!! This certainly coincides with some earlier comments.