Two shamanic Tonkin knives

Sajen · 30th April 2014, 06:13 PM

Here some more pictures from the smaller one. It is nearly 23 cm long.

Sajen · 30th April 2014, 06:20 PM

And here some more from the bigger one. 29 cm long.

VANDOO · 30th April 2014, 07:29 PM

THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN TO THESE KNIVES ARE FROM CAMBODIA. THEY HAVE ANTLER HANDLES AND ENGRAVING ON THE BLADES BUT WERE NEWER. THESE ARE OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND OLDER EXAMPLES AND MAY BE CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AT LEAST THATS WHERE I WOULD START LOOKING FOR REFRENCES.
CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LAOS ECT ARE IN THAT REGION WHICH USED TO BE REFERRED TO AS INDO-CHINA AND THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMULAR TRIBES THRUOUT THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION. THERE ARE SOME OLD FORUM POSTS ON THE CAMBODIAN EXAMPLES FOR COMPARISON AND IT IS LIKELY SIMULAR KNIVES WERE FOUND THRUOUT THE REGION IN VARING QUALITY AND VALUE. YOUR EXAMPLES BEING OF THE MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND CLASS. THE DIFFERENT BLADE SHAPES MAY INDICATE THEIR USE OR NOT

BUT THEY SURELY INDICATE THEY SERVED A DIFFERENT FUNCTION OR SHOWED A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE IN DESIGN AND DECORATION. GOOD LUCK

Sajen · 30th April 2014, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN TO THESE KNIVES ARE FROM CAMBODIA. THEY HAVE ANTLER HANDLES AND ENGRAVING ON THE BLADES BUT WERE NEWER. THESE ARE OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND OLDER EXAMPLES AND MAY BE CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AT LEAST THATS WHERE I WOULD START LOOKING FOR REFRENCES.
CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LAOS ECT ARE IN THAT REGION WHICH USED TO BE REFERRED TO AS INDO-CHINA AND THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMULAR TRIBES THRUOUT THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION. THERE ARE SOME OLD FORUM POSTS ON THE CAMBODIAN EXAMPLES FOR COMPARISON AND IT IS LIKELY SIMULAR KNIVES WERE FOUND THRUOUT THE REGION IN VARING QUALITY AND VALUE. YOUR EXAMPLES BEING OF THE MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND CLASS. THE DIFFERENT BLADE SHAPES MAY INDICATE THEIR USE OR NOT

BUT THEY SURELY INDICATE THEY SERVED A DIFFERENT FUNCTION OR SHOWED A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE IN DESIGN AND DECORATION. GOOD LUCK

Thank you Barry,

I have searched already but haven't found something similar!

But anyway, thank you very much for comment!

Regards,
Detlef

spiral · 30th April 2014, 08:33 PM

Fascinating pieces!

What age where they sold as?

The antler is from Barking deer or Muntjak, I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts, It is also used on small knife hilts in Burma, Thailand & no doubt probably Vietnam & Cambodia as well. { All in the Natural range of the Deer.}

Spiral

Sajen · 30th April 2014, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Fascinating pieces!

What age where they sold as?

The antler is from Barking deer or Muntjak, I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts, It is also used on small knife hilts in Burma, Thailand & no doubt probably Vietnam & Cambodia as well. { All in the Natural range of the Deer.}

Spiral

Hello Spiral,

yes, when I have seen them first time I was fascinated as well. The auction house don't know something about them, they was described as India knives, 19th/20th century. But when I look to the antler I am sure that they has been in use for some decades.
Thank you for the hint of the deer origin, I have attached a picture of the Chinese Muntjak, found by google.

Regards,
Detlef

russel · 30th April 2014, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts

I envy you your Muntjac Karda, Spiral: they are high on my wish list!

Nice finds Detlef, I have an interesting little book about Muntjac in England:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16093592-muntjac

Thanks for sharing,

Russel

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2014, 03:20 AM

Detlef, thank you for sharing these very attractive knives, as well as for the perfect descriptions and excellent photography with details.
While I know very little on the weapons of SE Asia, I have always found the esoterica most interesting, so am looking forward to learning more on these as well.
Meanwhile I have taken some time to discover what I can, with emphasis on trying to confirm if these are indeed shamanic implements as suggested. It would seem of course quite likely as they are not sharpened, and it seems the antlers are something often associated with shamanic ritual .

Interestingly, I have seen American Indian knives using antlers in this manner for hilts, and it seems they were associated with chiefs or medicine men (indeed shamanic). I also recall from a book titled "The Mind in the Cave" discussion on shamans, and cave art images from France which showed prehistoric shamans wearing antlers . From anthropological POV it is fascinating to see these kinds of symbolic elements transmitted through so many cultures.

It would seem that Tonkin (North Vietnam) tribes may well be the provenance for these but clearly they could be from various tribes and regions throughout these SE Asian areas. Apparently the animist beliefs and rituals in Vietnam became absorbed into those of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism, and it is indicated that most of the shamanist duties were taken over by Buddhist priests ( "Lost Fighting Arts of Vietnam", Haha Lung, 2006) with the arrival of Chinese culture .

It may be presumed that these knives were used as ritual implements in much the same manner as the 'phurbu' (often termed 'ghost dagger') in Tibetan Buddhist ritual. These implements are used symbolically against malevolent forces and demons .

I found this link to 'Shamanic Arts of Vietnam' and possibly this site might offer more inroads into whether these actually are Vietnamese shamanic implements .

http://www.54traditions.com.vn/index...d=10&Itemid=15

Looking forward to more from others on these very nice acquisitions!

30th April 2014, 06:13 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Here some more pictures from the smaller one. It is nearly 23 cm long. Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 30th April 2014 at 06:24 PM.

30th April 2014, 06:20 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	And here some more from the bigger one. 29 cm long. Attached Images

30th April 2014, 07:29 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE CLOSEST I HAVE SEEN TO THESE KNIVES ARE FROM CAMBODIA. THEY HAVE ANTLER HANDLES AND ENGRAVING ON THE BLADES BUT WERE NEWER. THESE ARE OF MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND OLDER EXAMPLES AND MAY BE CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AT LEAST THATS WHERE I WOULD START LOOKING FOR REFRENCES. CAMBODIA, VIETNAM, LAOS ECT ARE IN THAT REGION WHICH USED TO BE REFERRED TO AS INDO-CHINA AND THERE ARE A LOT OF SIMULAR TRIBES THRUOUT THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION. THERE ARE SOME OLD FORUM POSTS ON THE CAMBODIAN EXAMPLES FOR COMPARISON AND IT IS LIKELY SIMULAR KNIVES WERE FOUND THRUOUT THE REGION IN VARING QUALITY AND VALUE. YOUR EXAMPLES BEING OF THE MUCH BETTER QUALITY AND CLASS. THE DIFFERENT BLADE SHAPES MAY INDICATE THEIR USE OR NOT BUT THEY SURELY INDICATE THEY SERVED A DIFFERENT FUNCTION OR SHOWED A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE IN DESIGN AND DECORATION. GOOD LUCK

30th April 2014, 08:33 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Fascinating pieces! What age where they sold as? The antler is from Barking deer or Muntjak, I have several Nepalese Karda & a Nepalese shepherds knife using such antlers for hilts, It is also used on small knife hilts in Burma, Thailand & no doubt probably Vietnam & Cambodia as well. { All in the Natural range of the Deer.} Spiral

1st May 2014, 03:20 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Detlef, thank you for sharing these very attractive knives, as well as for the perfect descriptions and excellent photography with details. While I know very little on the weapons of SE Asia, I have always found the esoterica most interesting, so am looking forward to learning more on these as well. Meanwhile I have taken some time to discover what I can, with emphasis on trying to confirm if these are indeed shamanic implements as suggested. It would seem of course quite likely as they are not sharpened, and it seems the antlers are something often associated with shamanic ritual . Interestingly, I have seen American Indian knives using antlers in this manner for hilts, and it seems they were associated with chiefs or medicine men (indeed shamanic). I also recall from a book titled "The Mind in the Cave" discussion on shamans, and cave art images from France which showed prehistoric shamans wearing antlers . From anthropological POV it is fascinating to see these kinds of symbolic elements transmitted through so many cultures. It would seem that Tonkin (North Vietnam) tribes may well be the provenance for these but clearly they could be from various tribes and regions throughout these SE Asian areas. Apparently the animist beliefs and rituals in Vietnam became absorbed into those of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism, and it is indicated that most of the shamanist duties were taken over by Buddhist priests ( "Lost Fighting Arts of Vietnam", Haha Lung, 2006) with the arrival of Chinese culture . It may be presumed that these knives were used as ritual implements in much the same manner as the 'phurbu' (often termed 'ghost dagger') in Tibetan Buddhist ritual. These implements are used symbolically against malevolent forces and demons . I found this link to 'Shamanic Arts of Vietnam' and possibly this site might offer more inroads into whether these actually are Vietnamese shamanic implements . http://www.54traditions.com.vn/index...d=10&Itemid=15 Looking forward to more from others on these very nice acquisitions!