AN INTERESTING PAINTING

rickystl · 26th April 2014, 05:09 PM

A few Cossack type weapons............

Jim McDougall · 26th April 2014, 07:48 PM

Outstanding grouping there Ricky!!!! Thank you for posting it,
Ibrahiim, as always fantastic historic data which adds great perspective here .
Naturally there are those who will express concerns about the depth of the material added, and extensive text.....but I would remind everyone this material is simply context for readers who are researching subject matter.
This comprehensive data is there for those who chose to read it or use it....it is not required reading nor will there be a quiz!!!

I for one, very much appreciate the intriguing and helpful contributions you take the time to assemble and enter on these topics . Thank you.

KraVseR, as Norman well explained, these images comprise various subjects and individuals which indeed provide context with which to view the general topics here. While Zaporozhian Cossacks have become a focal point in much of the discussion the objective has been showing the usefulness of many artworks in learning more on weapons we study.
Its great to have your input however, as you are from these regions we find so intriguing and these fascinating Cossack groups.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th April 2014, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Outstanding grouping there Ricky!!!! Thank you for posting it,
Ibrahiim, as always fantastic historic data which adds great perspective here .
Naturally there are those who will express concerns about the depth of the material added, and extensive text.....but I would remind everyone this material is simply context for readers who are researching subject matter.
This comprehensive data is there for those who chose to read it or use it....it is not required reading nor will there be a quiz!!!

I for one, very much appreciate the intriguing and helpful contributions you take the time to assemble and enter on these topics . Thank you.

KraVseR, as Norman well explained, these images comprise various subjects and individuals which indeed provide context with which to view the general topics here. While Zaporozhian Cossacks have become a focal point in much of the discussion the objective has been showing the usefulness of many artworks in learning more on weapons we study.
Its great to have your input however, as you are from these regions we find so intriguing and these fascinating Cossack groups.

Salaams Jim, I think a quiz would be a great idea !!!

I have certainly learned a lot myself about The Cossacks from bulling up on the considerable material available simply by pressing a few buttons on the web. Of course our own resource is very good and similarly that takes only a few seconds to display a vast quantity of excellent detail. What this means is that anyone can march into one of these debates and discussions fairly well tuned up on the basic facts...often without the luxury of books and documents to hand. (Jelous though I am that you drive in the worlds biggest .. veritable Ethno Library ..and it must be great to flick open the relevant pages at will...when you get a chance to stop.) You lead by example and it must inspire everyone; as I know it does me.

With that in mind I believe it is incumbent upon all of us to respond with the common courtesy to look up a few relevant details rather than just plunk down "the dreaded one liner"...( hopelessly inadequate ) ... onto these pages.

I always ask myself...Is library served in my reply or addition to Forum ? To that end Forum is advanced, educated and informed whilst those beginners get the news in depth and concentrated.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th April 2014, 09:33 AM

Salaams all~ Jozef Brandt painted this in about 1880... showing a rearguard Camp of the Zaporizhian Cossacks, probably set in the late 16th or early 17th century. The logistic resupply for horses alone must have been huge.
Note the lead trooper carrying his trusted Shashqa.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

rickystl · 29th April 2014, 12:57 PM

Thanks Jim. Took a while to assemble all that.

Thanks to everyone for posting the above photos - all of which I've never seen before. I've added a few to my library. Thanks again. Rick.

TVV · 29th April 2014, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all~ Jozef Brandt painted this in about 1880... Note the lead trooper carrying his trusted Shashqa.

And this is exactly the problem with paintings: the shashka is a much later form, which became popular only in the 19th century. Obviously, it was well adopted towards the end of the 1800s, when the painting was created, but is not reflective of the armament of 16/17th century Zaporozhian Cossacks.

Teodor

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th April 2014, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

And this is exactly the problem with paintings: the shashka is a much later form, which became popular only in the 19th century. Obviously, it was well adopted towards the end of the 1800s, when the painting was created, but is not reflective of the armament of 16/17th century Zaporozhian Cossacks.

Teodor

Salaams TVV, Thank you for the note.

However, the rich legacy of ethnographic evidence left to us by the famous artists ...Orientalist, Romanticist and others cannot simply be a closed box because some of them may have employed artistic licence in creating such masterpieces...Here on canvas is the record of life as they saw it ... not through the eyes of the not yet invented camera..but in paint...The distinct difference being one of feeling, character and atmosphere... portrayed by the artist... and brilliantly comparable in the photo and similar painting earlier on this thread.

Whilst you may have a point on Shashqas regarding the timeline...Albert Seaton in his book ...The Cossacks may have a different perspective...at page 34 plate A3 Zaporozian Cossack. C 1700.

Quote" The Zaporozian Cossack wore Turkish or Tartar dress and used Turkish weapons; sometimes because he stripped the Tartar dead and wounded and raided Turkish settlements sometimes because he was in the pay of the Ottoman Sultan on whom he relied for weapons''.Unquote

Perhaps this is illustrated in the painting I posted and explains the presence of the Shashqa..(spoils of war?)and further that no spot, precise date is noted for the period being painted... and anyway who is this trooper... possibly a Circassian? Who can tell?
Perhaps you could elaborate with a description to library of the timeline of the Shashqa weapon etc ? I have some notes on the weapon from Antony Norths Islamic Arms ...which I can dig out later.

There are a few examples(also type in the other spelling Shashka at Forum Library and indeed a great interchange of ideas involving your Shashqa at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17990

..and great later examples at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Shashqa

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2014, 04:59 PM

As noted by Teodor, there are certain issues in relying on artwork for investigation of historic arms, which I also mentioned in my post (#11) and as I had mentioned, a degree of caution using these resources is of course necessary.
I do believe that in many cases there is a good degree of reasonable accuracy prevalent, and as with any investigation, items or elements in question should be researched independently for corroborating evidence.

I think Ibrahiim has followed that approach well in seeking more evidence in other sources to discover just what type of weapons might have been used by the Zaporozhian Cossacks in the rather broadly described period suggested for that of Brandt's painting. I think perhaps the degree of license employed by Brandt might be revealed in knowing more about him, his nationality, and circumstances pertaining to him (the painting is dated c.1880).

As Ibrahiim has noted, the author Albert Seaton in his book "The Cossacks" has noted that the Zaporozhian Cossacks wore Turkish and Tatar dress and used these weapon forms, and puts that reference to c.1700.
I can recall being surprised many years ago in research which revealed that Zaporozhian Cossacks were exceptional among Cossack hosts as they DIDN'T wear shashkas. I do not recall further details, but am grateful that Ibrahiim found this information and cited the source...as always good to recheck notes!

Here is where the most exciting part of our shared interest here comes in, and what is often referred to as 'historic detection'.
In looking at this painting, the lead figure in these images of Zaporozhian Cossacks, said to be of late 16th-17th c. , is clearly wearing a shashka.
This is instantly recognized as anomalous as (1) it is typically held that the shashka was not a favored weapon among these Cossacks, and (2) the timeline of these sabres seems to date much later than the period represented in the painting.

Certainly the most obvious answer to this curious detail is, the artist in rendering his painting in 1880 (s) was likely familiar with the shashka, which was broadly associated with 'Cossacks' and presumed this 'key' weapon at the forefront would instantly identify the figures as such.

While such art works are not of course completed in 'real time', the accuracy must always be suspect, but still we wish to determine the validity of the elements represented. So we ask, 'could a Zaporozhian Cossack have been using a shashka?'
We must consider that this host of Cossacks was effectively dissolved and assimilated into other groups and regions under Russian influence in the 18th c.

Since the timeline for the painting is set in the 17th century, or largely so, the question set forth by Ibrahiim on the timeline of the shashka, as a weapon form, is well placed. We know that most examples of this guardless sabre seem to be of early 19th century, some perhaps into 18th, as far as surviving examples and primarily in Caucasian regions. While examples of this 'type' of sabre seem to occur in other regions as well, mostly Central Asian but apparently even wider into even Bulgaria (?) and others, the timeline is far from clear. What we do know is that the shashka was well known in the 19th century, and had become predominantly associated with Cossacks, especially of course, those in Russian service.

These things considered, probably the most important to remember would be that these early Cossack hosts were widely diversified as to their ethnic components. This is key as they of course favored and used their own types of arms. They are also, like most relatively unregulated groups (as far as 'uniformity' ) prone to use weapons obtained through many means. There were no dress codes nor uniform patterns for arms for Cossacks (aside obviously from later when they became Russian army units) much as there were none for auxiliary units like 'Pandours' etc. in European armies.

Therefore I would presume that in the painting by Brandt, it is most likely that artists license prevailed, and the shashka was quite possibly placed in a key location to emphasize or distinguish these as 'Cossacks'. It seems that Rembrandt used weaponry distinctively in some cases (as in the 'Night Watch') as well as fancifully (as the keris in the painting of Samson and Delilah).

29th April 2014, 09:33 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~ Jozef Brandt painted this in about 1880... showing a rearguard Camp of the Zaporizhian Cossacks, probably set in the late 16th or early 17th century. The logistic resupply for horses alone must have been huge. Note the lead trooper carrying his trusted Shashqa. Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

29th April 2014, 12:57 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Photos Thanks Jim. Took a while to assemble all that. Thanks to everyone for posting the above photos - all of which I've never seen before. I've added a few to my library. Thanks again. Rick.

26th April 2014, 05:09 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	A few items A few Cossack type weapons............ Attached Images

26th April 2014, 07:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Outstanding grouping there Ricky!!!! Thank you for posting it, Ibrahiim, as always fantastic historic data which adds great perspective here . Naturally there are those who will express concerns about the depth of the material added, and extensive text.....but I would remind everyone this material is simply context for readers who are researching subject matter. This comprehensive data is there for those who chose to read it or use it....it is not required reading nor will there be a quiz!!! I for one, very much appreciate the intriguing and helpful contributions you take the time to assemble and enter on these topics . Thank you. KraVseR, as Norman well explained, these images comprise various subjects and individuals which indeed provide context with which to view the general topics here. While Zaporozhian Cossacks have become a focal point in much of the discussion the objective has been showing the usefulness of many artworks in learning more on weapons we study. Its great to have your input however, as you are from these regions we find so intriguing and these fascinating Cossack groups.

30th April 2014, 04:59 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	As noted by Teodor, there are certain issues in relying on artwork for investigation of historic arms, which I also mentioned in my post (#11) and as I had mentioned, a degree of caution using these resources is of course necessary. I do believe that in many cases there is a good degree of reasonable accuracy prevalent, and as with any investigation, items or elements in question should be researched independently for corroborating evidence. I think Ibrahiim has followed that approach well in seeking more evidence in other sources to discover just what type of weapons might have been used by the Zaporozhian Cossacks in the rather broadly described period suggested for that of Brandt's painting. I think perhaps the degree of license employed by Brandt might be revealed in knowing more about him, his nationality, and circumstances pertaining to him (the painting is dated c.1880). As Ibrahiim has noted, the author Albert Seaton in his book "The Cossacks" has noted that the Zaporozhian Cossacks wore Turkish and Tatar dress and used these weapon forms, and puts that reference to c.1700. I can recall being surprised many years ago in research which revealed that Zaporozhian Cossacks were exceptional among Cossack hosts as they DIDN'T wear shashkas. I do not recall further details, but am grateful that Ibrahiim found this information and cited the source...as always good to recheck notes! Here is where the most exciting part of our shared interest here comes in, and what is often referred to as 'historic detection'. In looking at this painting, the lead figure in these images of Zaporozhian Cossacks, said to be of late 16th-17th c. , is clearly wearing a shashka. This is instantly recognized as anomalous as (1) it is typically held that the shashka was not a favored weapon among these Cossacks, and (2) the timeline of these sabres seems to date much later than the period represented in the painting. Certainly the most obvious answer to this curious detail is, the artist in rendering his painting in 1880 (s) was likely familiar with the shashka, which was broadly associated with 'Cossacks' and presumed this 'key' weapon at the forefront would instantly identify the figures as such. While such art works are not of course completed in 'real time', the accuracy must always be suspect, but still we wish to determine the validity of the elements represented. So we ask, 'could a Zaporozhian Cossack have been using a shashka?' We must consider that this host of Cossacks was effectively dissolved and assimilated into other groups and regions under Russian influence in the 18th c. Since the timeline for the painting is set in the 17th century, or largely so, the question set forth by Ibrahiim on the timeline of the shashka, as a weapon form, is well placed. We know that most examples of this guardless sabre seem to be of early 19th century, some perhaps into 18th, as far as surviving examples and primarily in Caucasian regions. While examples of this 'type' of sabre seem to occur in other regions as well, mostly Central Asian but apparently even wider into even Bulgaria (?) and others, the timeline is far from clear. What we do know is that the shashka was well known in the 19th century, and had become predominantly associated with Cossacks, especially of course, those in Russian service. These things considered, probably the most important to remember would be that these early Cossack hosts were widely diversified as to their ethnic components. This is key as they of course favored and used their own types of arms. They are also, like most relatively unregulated groups (as far as 'uniformity' ) prone to use weapons obtained through many means. There were no dress codes nor uniform patterns for arms for Cossacks (aside obviously from later when they became Russian army units) much as there were none for auxiliary units like 'Pandours' etc. in European armies. Therefore I would presume that in the painting by Brandt, it is most likely that artists license prevailed, and the shashka was quite possibly placed in a key location to emphasize or distinguish these as 'Cossacks'. It seems that Rembrandt used weaponry distinctively in some cases (as in the 'Night Watch') as well as fancifully (as the keris in the painting of Samson and Delilah).