A cup hilt sword for coments.

[M ELEY]

Aaaaah! Fernando, you are correct with your rhetorical questioning, but what a puzzle it is!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
Indeed these are a conundrum, and I think the rhetorically placed idea that the embellishment on the cup bowl is likely added on. I am inclined to follow my suggestion that these were probably Spanish cuphilts or their components obtained by Haitian artisans from Spaniards in the period noted. The silver devices on the faux rayskin seem likely to be 'charms'or amulet type devices likely from the items used in the native folk religion.
Naturally they may simply be aesthetic adornments, however it is tempting to think they were applied more symbolically.
It seems reasonable to think these two swords are of the period noted around the Haitian Rebellion, and compellingly suggest the same artisan or workshop completed them both .

Who knows, in a few years maybe somebody else will turn one up? It happened with the 'Berber' sabres; 'Black Sea yatagans' and the Cuban guabacoa anomalies.

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Sorry, I was out of town until today. Back to this fascinating cup-hilt form.

Jim, I had missed your earlier synopsis of this sword's Haitian connection, with its talismanic charms on the grip. Your theory makes sense! There were certainly very specific styles of espadas that we see throughout the colonies. The Cuban style swords, as pictured in Brinkerhoff's volume comes to mind (their distinctive strap-like bars with studs to the guard). All of the Indies undoubtedly had their own styles, much like the Brazilian cutlass that you helped identify on this forum. I do hope you are right that we might see others in the future to pin this form down.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
I missed your response, thank you so much for the kind words as always. I do recall those espadas we identified as Brazilian, and were of course probably much wider used throughout the 'Spanish Main' of the 19th c.
That was really quite a breakthrough as we had little knowledge on Spanish colonial edged weapons outside those in Mexico and the Southwest.

Interesting on these cuphilts and reading some discussion on another forum, how incredibly little these are known at large. Aside from one writer based in Spain and a brilliant arms scholar, other notes were pretty void .

I like the fact that here we are able to stay with a topic and pursue more data and examples with the goal of actually learning the history of these arms. It seems others just want a label, or wording to sell things.

I always hope more will come in on these, I really do believe these were of the same location and perhaps even workshop.

[M ELEY]

Absolutely agree to generic labeling of pieces these days, Jim. The importance of pinpointing not only adds to our knowledge, but for those that enjoy the fine details, helps us appreciate the history behind it. I have found this fact particularly with naval weapons. Many weapons that went to sea were not documented and must be labeled 'associated'. That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof of such (anchor designs, rack numbers, axe patterns used by naval) while ignoring other pieces that very likely were nautical examples, but need more research to pin them down. Sorry to divert from the sword at hand, but I think the point is this form of sword differs from its cousins for a reason and hopefully, we'll crack its code someday!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... That being said, some collectors shy away from anything but weapons with absolute exacting proof ...

Touché Capitão ... naval or not naval. Within such concept you have 'restricted' or 'vague' labels, like a sword of the Peninsular War or a spontoon of the American Revolution.
But you will have to recognize that a weapon full of marks and dates scores a better position in the rank of preferences; not including those which are so undoubtedly identifiable that one looks 'instead' for their perservation condition.
These two swords bear symptoms of having being in the same location (colony) and potentialy made (read hilted or even rehilted) by the same guild or even the same artisan. Their life path may (read must) have however been a different one.
My sword was in Spain when i acquired it; Dana's example was in Great Britain.
My sword has a traditional Spaniosh blade with the inscription; Dana's example is a plain rapier type one.
With these ingredients, missing precise data and giving wings to imagination,
one could design here two rather different stories.
My sword could have gone from Spain to the Colonies, be rehilted by a local smith as an added (or souvenir) value to its (Spanish) owner and return to the main land, later ending in the hands of a familiar who later sold it or gave it way.
Danas's example could have been hilted or re-hilted in the same spot but remained there, as a local field/ornament weapon, later brought to Britain for whatever reason, including commercial purposes.
Now ... how's that for an approach ?
Let me tell you guys that, nobody in the world is more zealous enthusiast of a piece's precise provenance than me ... for one

[Jim McDougall]

Nando, I should have more carefully worded my comment to note 'we' meaning most of us here on these forums, it sounded like I meant just Mark and myself oops! Quite true.......you're a super sleuth when it comes to provenance and studying developed history on these arms!!
I know...you and I have been at it for how many years now!!! ???

It is true, an item that has established pedigree in provenance, or that is well marked and referenced certainly does excel in historic value .

Thank you for reiterating the comparative differences between these two examples, which clearly were taken on different courses after leaving their original point of fabrication. Nicely summarized!!

Mark, you're spot on with your notes on the variations and undocumented instances of arms 'probably' used in maritime circumstances. We well know that to be the case on 'pirate' vessels, and do you recall our push to discover how likely it was that Scottish (and other) basket hilts were used at sea? I believe years ago Dr. Mazansky did an x-ray study on a basket hilt of late 16th century from an English shipwreck off Bermuda (part of the source material for Shakespeare's "The Tempest" if I recall) .

All the best,
Jim