Blade origin of Manding sword?

blue lander · 27th March 2014, 01:58 PM

If it's a parade/dress saber that would explain the bending as well as how lightly built it is overall. And thank you as always for providing the historical context. I wonder why they altered the tip of the blade. It doesn't seem typical for Manding swords. Maybe the original tip snapped off and this is how they repaired it.

I once saw an auction for an "African saber" that was a completely unaltered European saber with its original European style guard and hilt, but in a Manding style leather scabbard. I wish I had saved a picture. If that saber could have been identified by the shape of the guard, maybe it would tell us more about when and where the Manding got their blades. Assuming it wasn't an anomaly of course.

Edit: never mind. I found the auction in my browser history and the scabbard looks like it's North African, not Manding. I must have misremembered. Here it is anyways. It looks quite a bit like a takouba scabbard, and the saber itself looks like a cheapo private purchase one rather than anything military issued.

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2014, 05:24 PM

Very nicely done Blue!!! Thank you for the excellent comparisons, most helpful. I think, as Ibrahiim has noted, this is indeed most likely a later 19th century European sabre blade, probably an officers, and as we have agreed, pretty savagely ground and reprofiled.

The intact European sabre is most interesting, and indeed does have a Tuareg style scabbard, something I have honestly not seen used on an original European sword. This type of anomaly certainly does reinforce the profound availability of these European swords and blades throughout these regions.

I think that determining the direction of diffusion and influence of certain forms of weapons, in this case pertaining of course primarily to the hilt, is quite difficult. As we know, blades can come from many sources, but the hilt is typically a locally applied style in the region from which it is provenanced.

We have here a basic similarity in the cylindrical hilt style of the Manding sabre as well as the Omani kattara, which of course seems to have appeared around mid 18th century in Oman as Ibrahiim has well contended. While the kattara is of course typically known to carry the broadsword blades which were typically trade blades in the Red Sea sphere supplying the Sudan, it does seem that curved blades in the same circumstances afforded the appearance of sabre type versions.

Returning to the Saharan regions of West Africa where the Manding sabres prevail, we must consider if other guardless and cylindrical style hilts are found in surrounding regions and of such presence that they became the hilt form now well known. If there is evidence that cylindrical style hilts were present in surrounding regions, and prior to the mid 18th century date of origin of the Omani kattara hilt, then we have plausibility for the theory of African origin of this hilt style.

As trade and caravan routes are of course reciprocal, then the appearance of these cylindrical hilts on the Kenyan 'seme' swords could well have occurred via these routes in either direction.

It is known that a certain cylindrical style hilt, quite basic as seen on the Algerian knives shown in Blue Landers illustrations (often using cut down sabre blades in the same fashion as this posted Manding sabre) is known in regions of Sierra Leone. These often have kaskara type trade blades, but it seems that most are from well into the 19th century, so may be considered 'reflectively' influenced from the hilts of the Manding and trade blades carried on trans Saharan routes.

We may also consider that simple hilts, that is without guard system, are of course known in another expanse of the Saharan sphere, which is part of the Berber complex. That is in the Kabyle regions of Algeria and the sword is the flyssa . As far as has been determined, these intriguing hilts (the blades are almost invariably native) with stylized zoomorphic pommel, do not date much beyond early 19th century, so exceed any potential for influence.

It is worthy of note however, that the flyssa does have a characteristically sharply pointed tip, which the posted Manding sword seems to reflect in degree in its reprofiled tip. Again , these comparisons do not help us with seeking origins on the hilt style.
I would point out that Ottoman forces were present not only in North Africa but in Arabia. The Ottomans used for many centuries, men from Caucasian regions who not only were in the Janissaries but Mamluks in Egypt . Perhaps the weapons of these men, which of course included yataghans and shashkas, presented the idea of a simpler form of hilt? I think this would support the idea that these hilts might have developed in Arabia and transmitted westward via the trade venues.

blue lander · 27th March 2014, 06:22 PM

You know, when I first saw a Manding cylindrical hilt I assume it was shaped that way for practical reasons rather than stylistic ones. Like, if you took a stick tang sword and wrapped leather around it to make a hilt, that's the shape you'd end up with.

My other "scrap metal" Manding sword has a very different hilt construction. The tang is almost the full width of the blade. The end of the tang was folded back on top of itself to create a pommel. A leather cap covers it, but it's easily removed. I've seen quite a few similar swords go up for auction and they all appear to have a similar construction. The scabbards terminate in a tip like a European scabbard rather than the usual Manding style. The scabbards always feature woven multicolor leather. The blades are always blackened and extremely crude. The hilt is sometimes circular or sometimes dog bone shape, but there's never any metal furniture to it. Are these modern Manding swords made in a simpler style by less skilled artisans, or tourist pieces, or what?

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2014, 10:20 PM

That hilt strongly reminds me of the Sierra Leone swords I mentioned, which of course would not have been confined to that region but as always collectors have to put some kind of label on it. It is known that European type sabres have been in use throughout West Africa into modern times, so seeing these type of chape sleeves is not surprising .

What you are saying is systematically correct, fashioning a grip or hilt that is serviceable is a simple affair, so a rounded handle would serve well. It is of course understandable that a weapon being at least somewhat a status item one would not want just a crude lump of wood, so design and decoration would be employed accordingly .

I tend to dislike the cavalier description of 'tourist' item for ethnographic weapons at large as in many, possibly even most cases, these weapons are used in at least some degree as traditional accoutrements among tribal peoples. I think these somewhat crudely fashioned items fall into that traditional category, while the touristy items are obviously too fragile and focused on bling for combat or actual use. In many of these regions, edged weapons (often collectively termed machetes by journalists) are indeed still used.

blue lander · 28th March 2014, 03:24 AM

I'll have to read up more on Sierra Leone and its swords. I've attached a picture of the rolled up end of the tang, which I thought was pretty clever. I've always wondered what the pattern on the fabric is from. It looks like it used to be covered in black leather so it wasn't mean to be seen.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2014, 04:28 AM

Good question on that, and delving into those topics is yet another dimension in the study of these weapons. I would suggest good references on African crafts and textiles with focus on West Africa. These patterns often contain important tribal symbolism and even colors have key meanings in many cases.
A great book which deals a lot in the symbolisms in African material culture, though focused on jewelry, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. It is a huge volume but fantastically photographed and lots of fascinating detail on tribes and their traditional styles and effects .

blue lander · 28th March 2014, 06:54 PM

According to this site , there's a tradition of printed fabrics in Africa.

African print fabrics come from a batik tradition and were imported from Indonesia starting in the colonial period. On some piece there are still tags that reference "wax-resist" and/or "Java." Depending upon where you are on the continent this cloth can be referred to as lappa (Liberia, Sierra Leone), wrappa, pagne (Francophone West Africa), kanga (East Africa)

This site has several African prints that look somewhat similar to what's on this hilt.

27th March 2014, 01:58 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	If it's a parade/dress saber that would explain the bending as well as how lightly built it is overall. And thank you as always for providing the historical context. I wonder why they altered the tip of the blade. It doesn't seem typical for Manding swords. Maybe the original tip snapped off and this is how they repaired it. I once saw an auction for an "African saber" that was a completely unaltered European saber with its original European style guard and hilt, but in a Manding style leather scabbard. I wish I had saved a picture. If that saber could have been identified by the shape of the guard, maybe it would tell us more about when and where the Manding got their blades. Assuming it wasn't an anomaly of course. Edit: never mind. I found the auction in my browser history and the scabbard looks like it's North African, not Manding. I must have misremembered. Here it is anyways. It looks quite a bit like a takouba scabbard, and the saber itself looks like a cheapo private purchase one rather than anything military issued. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 27th March 2014 at 02:12 PM.

27th March 2014, 06:22 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	You know, when I first saw a Manding cylindrical hilt I assume it was shaped that way for practical reasons rather than stylistic ones. Like, if you took a stick tang sword and wrapped leather around it to make a hilt, that's the shape you'd end up with. My other "scrap metal" Manding sword has a very different hilt construction. The tang is almost the full width of the blade. The end of the tang was folded back on top of itself to create a pommel. A leather cap covers it, but it's easily removed. I've seen quite a few similar swords go up for auction and they all appear to have a similar construction. The scabbards terminate in a tip like a European scabbard rather than the usual Manding style. The scabbards always feature woven multicolor leather. The blades are always blackened and extremely crude. The hilt is sometimes circular or sometimes dog bone shape, but there's never any metal furniture to it. Are these modern Manding swords made in a simpler style by less skilled artisans, or tourist pieces, or what? Attached Images

28th March 2014, 03:24 AM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I'll have to read up more on Sierra Leone and its swords. I've attached a picture of the rolled up end of the tang, which I thought was pretty clever. I've always wondered what the pattern on the fabric is from. It looks like it used to be covered in black leather so it wasn't mean to be seen. Attached Images

27th March 2014, 05:24 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Very nicely done Blue!!! Thank you for the excellent comparisons, most helpful. I think, as Ibrahiim has noted, this is indeed most likely a later 19th century European sabre blade, probably an officers, and as we have agreed, pretty savagely ground and reprofiled. The intact European sabre is most interesting, and indeed does have a Tuareg style scabbard, something I have honestly not seen used on an original European sword. This type of anomaly certainly does reinforce the profound availability of these European swords and blades throughout these regions. I think that determining the direction of diffusion and influence of certain forms of weapons, in this case pertaining of course primarily to the hilt, is quite difficult. As we know, blades can come from many sources, but the hilt is typically a locally applied style in the region from which it is provenanced. We have here a basic similarity in the cylindrical hilt style of the Manding sabre as well as the Omani kattara, which of course seems to have appeared around mid 18th century in Oman as Ibrahiim has well contended. While the kattara is of course typically known to carry the broadsword blades which were typically trade blades in the Red Sea sphere supplying the Sudan, it does seem that curved blades in the same circumstances afforded the appearance of sabre type versions. Returning to the Saharan regions of West Africa where the Manding sabres prevail, we must consider if other guardless and cylindrical style hilts are found in surrounding regions and of such presence that they became the hilt form now well known. If there is evidence that cylindrical style hilts were present in surrounding regions, and prior to the mid 18th century date of origin of the Omani kattara hilt, then we have plausibility for the theory of African origin of this hilt style. As trade and caravan routes are of course reciprocal, then the appearance of these cylindrical hilts on the Kenyan 'seme' swords could well have occurred via these routes in either direction. It is known that a certain cylindrical style hilt, quite basic as seen on the Algerian knives shown in Blue Landers illustrations (often using cut down sabre blades in the same fashion as this posted Manding sabre) is known in regions of Sierra Leone. These often have kaskara type trade blades, but it seems that most are from well into the 19th century, so may be considered 'reflectively' influenced from the hilts of the Manding and trade blades carried on trans Saharan routes. We may also consider that simple hilts, that is without guard system, are of course known in another expanse of the Saharan sphere, which is part of the Berber complex. That is in the Kabyle regions of Algeria and the sword is the flyssa . As far as has been determined, these intriguing hilts (the blades are almost invariably native) with stylized zoomorphic pommel, do not date much beyond early 19th century, so exceed any potential for influence. It is worthy of note however, that the flyssa does have a characteristically sharply pointed tip, which the posted Manding sword seems to reflect in degree in its reprofiled tip. Again , these comparisons do not help us with seeking origins on the hilt style. I would point out that Ottoman forces were present not only in North Africa but in Arabia. The Ottomans used for many centuries, men from Caucasian regions who not only were in the Janissaries but Mamluks in Egypt . Perhaps the weapons of these men, which of course included yataghans and shashkas, presented the idea of a simpler form of hilt? I think this would support the idea that these hilts might have developed in Arabia and transmitted westward via the trade venues.

27th March 2014, 10:20 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	That hilt strongly reminds me of the Sierra Leone swords I mentioned, which of course would not have been confined to that region but as always collectors have to put some kind of label on it. It is known that European type sabres have been in use throughout West Africa into modern times, so seeing these type of chape sleeves is not surprising . What you are saying is systematically correct, fashioning a grip or hilt that is serviceable is a simple affair, so a rounded handle would serve well. It is of course understandable that a weapon being at least somewhat a status item one would not want just a crude lump of wood, so design and decoration would be employed accordingly . I tend to dislike the cavalier description of 'tourist' item for ethnographic weapons at large as in many, possibly even most cases, these weapons are used in at least some degree as traditional accoutrements among tribal peoples. I think these somewhat crudely fashioned items fall into that traditional category, while the touristy items are obviously too fragile and focused on bling for combat or actual use. In many of these regions, edged weapons (often collectively termed machetes by journalists) are indeed still used.

28th March 2014, 04:28 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Good question on that, and delving into those topics is yet another dimension in the study of these weapons. I would suggest good references on African crafts and textiles with focus on West Africa. These patterns often contain important tribal symbolism and even colors have key meanings in many cases. A great book which deals a lot in the symbolisms in African material culture, though focused on jewelry, is "Africa Adorned" by Angela Fisher. It is a huge volume but fantastically photographed and lots of fascinating detail on tribes and their traditional styles and effects .

28th March 2014, 06:54 PM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	According to this site , there's a tradition of printed fabrics in Africa. African print fabrics come from a batik tradition and were imported from Indonesia starting in the colonial period. On some piece there are still tags that reference "wax-resist" and/or "Java." Depending upon where you are on the continent this cloth can be referred to as lappa (Liberia, Sierra Leone), wrappa, pagne (Francophone West Africa), kanga (East Africa) This site has several African prints that look somewhat similar to what's on this hilt.