Old Cirebon keris

BluErf · 23rd March 2014, 05:26 AM

Thank you sir, Amuk Murugul.

you provide some very important clues. My little bit of research suggests the expansion of Islamic Demak at the expanse of the old Hindu states and kingdoms, including Cirebon and Banten, in the 16th century could be a trigger. The fall of Melaka in the same century, leading to trading ships landing at Pattani instead could also be a factor that led the Javanese keris forms to the North.

A pertinent question could be why did the keris form not take root elsewhere closer like Palembang, Minang areas or even the Southern Peninsula? My current thinking is that these areas could already have existing incumbent kris cultures which were very strong, and hence, more inclined to assimilate parts of the influences rather than adopt wholesale.

The events in the 16th century could have led to an exodus of people, including keris-makers out of Northern Java. Or it could simply be the new flow of trade after Melaka's fall. I hear of a Kampung Jawa even in Kelantan. This sets the stage for the subsequent evolution of the coteng and tajong keris from the northern Javanese forms, and I note that the earliest coteng/tajong seemed to date no further back than the 17th century.

I will check out the Sunda leads. I will be glad to hear your views.

BluErf · 23rd March 2014, 05:36 AM

And to make things interesting, this Tegal keris appeared a few days ago and I was lucky enough to acquire it. Comparing it to the old coteng, the similarities in the sheath form is striking. And it does not take too much of a stretch in imagination to see how the Tegal hilt can morph into the coteng, given both share essentially the same features.

Amuk Murugul · 23rd March 2014, 11:58 PM

Hullo everybody!

BluErf, I don't want to be rude, but I have no wish to engage in discussion/debate.
You probably already know more than me.
However, I will leave you with these thoughts:

- You appear to have confirmed that the form 'began' c.1600CE.
Thus one needs to investigate whether a refugee from Java island arrived there around this time who would've had such a capability.

- Around this period, Pattani was losing out to a rival on the east coast.

- One should investigate this hilt form in as many of its guises as one can (e.g. Pekaka, Tajong, Coteng, Cenok, Singgora etc).

- As for 'kampung Jawa': there can be many reasons. I have found villages founded by previous Majapait/Singhasari garrisons; also villages whose people were descendants of members of Mataram Hanyokrokusumo's defeated army who preferred to desert rather than return home and face death.

BTW ... congrats for acquiring the Tegal piece from our Dutch friend!
Though very similar, no 'true' Sundanese would mistake it for a Sundanese keris.

Best,

Sajen · 24th March 2014, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

And to make things interesting, this Tegal keris appeared a few days ago and I was lucky enough to acquire it. Comparing it to the old coteng, the similarities in the sheath form is striking. And it does not take too much of a stretch in imagination to see how the Tegal hilt can morph into the coteng, given both share essentially the same features.

Congratulations for acquiring this beautiful keris. The discussion about the similarities between this and coteng sheath form we have had before in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11947

Regards,
Detlef

BluErf · 25th March 2014, 03:04 PM

Thanks Detlef for the limks. I must say at the end of those threads, the conclusion is not clear as to where the keris came from. It is just a general agreement that it is North Coast Java.

In fact,one of the posts with images suggest the Tegal sheath form is from Cirebon, and the Teratai sheath form is from Tegal, with a Rajamala hilt.

Amuk Murugul, thank you for your comments. Could you kindly show an example of a Sundanese keris please?

With regard to the N Malay hilt forms, my learning is that tajong and coteng are the long-nosed hilts I was trying to link the north coast Jawa hilt and sheath to. Pekaka is a special form of large jawa demam hilt. Cenok and Singgora are regions in Southern Thailand where coteng kerises are found, and Cenok is also used to describe the blade form from the region.

Thank you for sharing your insights.

23rd March 2014, 05:36 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	And to make things interesting, this Tegal keris appeared a few days ago and I was lucky enough to acquire it. Comparing it to the old coteng, the similarities in the sheath form is striking. And it does not take too much of a stretch in imagination to see how the Tegal hilt can morph into the coteng, given both share essentially the same features. Attached Images

23rd March 2014, 05:26 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thank you sir, Amuk Murugul. you provide some very important clues. My little bit of research suggests the expansion of Islamic Demak at the expanse of the old Hindu states and kingdoms, including Cirebon and Banten, in the 16th century could be a trigger. The fall of Melaka in the same century, leading to trading ships landing at Pattani instead could also be a factor that led the Javanese keris forms to the North. A pertinent question could be why did the keris form not take root elsewhere closer like Palembang, Minang areas or even the Southern Peninsula? My current thinking is that these areas could already have existing incumbent kris cultures which were very strong, and hence, more inclined to assimilate parts of the influences rather than adopt wholesale. The events in the 16th century could have led to an exodus of people, including keris-makers out of Northern Java. Or it could simply be the new flow of trade after Melaka's fall. I hear of a Kampung Jawa even in Kelantan. This sets the stage for the subsequent evolution of the coteng and tajong keris from the northern Javanese forms, and I note that the earliest coteng/tajong seemed to date no further back than the 17th century. I will check out the Sunda leads. I will be glad to hear your views.

23rd March 2014, 11:58 PM	#3
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody! BluErf, I don't want to be rude, but I have no wish to engage in discussion/debate. You probably already know more than me. However, I will leave you with these thoughts: - You appear to have confirmed that the form 'began' c.1600CE. Thus one needs to investigate whether a refugee from Java island arrived there around this time who would've had such a capability. - Around this period, Pattani was losing out to a rival on the east coast. - One should investigate this hilt form in as many of its guises as one can (e.g. Pekaka, Tajong, Coteng, Cenok, Singgora etc). - As for 'kampung Jawa': there can be many reasons. I have found villages founded by previous Majapait/Singhasari garrisons; also villages whose people were descendants of members of Mataram Hanyokrokusumo's defeated army who preferred to desert rather than return home and face death. BTW ... congrats for acquiring the Tegal piece from our Dutch friend! Though very similar, no 'true' Sundanese would mistake it for a Sundanese keris. Best,

25th March 2014, 03:04 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Detlef for the limks. I must say at the end of those threads, the conclusion is not clear as to where the keris came from. It is just a general agreement that it is North Coast Java. In fact,one of the posts with images suggest the Tegal sheath form is from Cirebon, and the Teratai sheath form is from Tegal, with a Rajamala hilt. Amuk Murugul, thank you for your comments. Could you kindly show an example of a Sundanese keris please? With regard to the N Malay hilt forms, my learning is that tajong and coteng are the long-nosed hilts I was trying to link the north coast Jawa hilt and sheath to. Pekaka is a special form of large jawa demam hilt. Cenok and Singgora are regions in Southern Thailand where coteng kerises are found, and Cenok is also used to describe the blade form from the region. Thank you for sharing your insights.