Incendiary device? Grenade? Or what?

M ELEY · 19th March 2014, 02:58 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Yes, Michael, you really did come through for me and I truly value your knowledge on these. I read your other thread from end to end, but didn't post this there until I knew it might be the real deal. I do hope the scholar you mentioned might have something to add as well.

Fernando- But of course I would need one of these if I am to take any ships in the Indies! Cap'n Mark

Nice find on the grenade launcher, Marcus! I've always been fascinated by the flintlock musket types with widened barrel.

Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!?

The interesting thing about mine is that it is completely hollow, not like the thicker examples such as the size-ways viewed illustration of a small pocket amid the thick clay 'walls'. Although not eggshell thin, this piece seems made to shatter on impact. Although small, it would have held a similar amount of powder due to the open cavity. Perhaps it was only used to ignite flammable textiles? Distract an opponent with a small flash of powder? In Gilkerson, he mentions stink pots and smoke pots being made of breakable pottery, but unfortunately doesn't show any pics of such items. To date, I have only seen one verified stink pot from an Elizabethan wreck, complete with barnacles. It looked basically like a clay jar with small ahndles on either side, but was flat bottomed. I've seen the early stink pots and clay incendiaries from the Middle East dating to the Crusades, but they were also larger affairs of mostly gray clay.

Marcus den toom · 19th March 2014, 08:25 AM

Hi Michael,

Thank you, i will investigate

M Eley, could the grenade of yours be some sort of post medievalish molotov cocktail? In Michael's thread about incendiaries, there is also a part about incendiary quoites which probably would have splashed around when lit and cause flesh melting burns

Though the quoites are solid, i am sure that there is also a liquid exuivalent (maybe just oil/tar with sulphur)? pure guess work of course

M ELEY · 19th March 2014, 09:02 AM

Hello Marcus,
I imagine that is very possible. In naval warefare, there was Greek fire that was contained in vessels. In maritime/pirate tradition, there were stink pots, which contained foul-smelling weeds, animal dung, sulfur, etc, and made to shatter and spray on impact! (lovely to get hit with the rank stuff-

).
I'm hoping that perhaps the material mine is made from might shed some light on what nationality, era, or area of design. I know it's crazy, but the reason I asked about Spanish colonials and if they had grenadoes is because the pottery material mine is made from reminds me of Pueblo Indian pottery- that black, brittle clay from the American Southwest. Anyway, jst thinking aloud!

fernando · 19th March 2014, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!?

...

Oh Mark, old chap !
I am beyond compare

M ELEY · 21st March 2014, 02:34 AM

Yes you are, Nando! Yes, you are!

I'm very psyched to get a bit of good news for a change (I had a particularly bad day otherwise!). In Michael's newest thread in incendiary arrows, he posted pics of Italian glass/clay grenades that are nearly spot-on for mine! Not to say mine is Italian, but I think that it cinches it that it is indeed a bombard/incendiary. Typically, when I present a 'mystery piece', it usually ends up being something mundane (As in 'Hey, I just liked up a cool Malabar Moplah knife!!! and then, it's -'Sorry, old chap, that's a Brazilian pizza cutter!

). Nice to have found something for a change!!

Matchlock · 21st March 2014, 11:53 AM

Hi Mark,

I brought those Italian grenades over here to your thread as well; they deserved it.
The caption reads that the first two grenades are dated to ca. 1700, the third 18th c., the fourth and sixth 18th/19th c., and #6 is 18th c.

And I wish you had more often the chance to detect something really valuable!

Best,
Michael

fernando · 21st March 2014, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...Typically, when I present a 'mystery piece', it usually ends up being something mundane (As in 'Hey, I just liked up a cool Malabar Moplah knife!!! and then, it's -'Sorry, old chap, that's a Brazilian pizza cutter!

)...

Capitão...
I hate to tell you that your 'mistery piece' is a snuff container

.
However, as i am an eclectic collector, i am ready to soften your despair and will accept that you dispatch the thing to me ... against a combined fee

M ELEY · 21st March 2014, 08:41 PM

Ahhh, a snuff container used by Blackbeard, no doubt! I think I'll just hang on to this one for a while!

BTW, Fernando, do you still have your excellent clay example you made the fuse for? She was a beaut as well. I'd love to add a bunch of different grenade types to the collection. Always fascinating to see what people come up with to hurl at each other! That paper grenade still comes to mind!! That example was on this forum, I think?

Michael, thanks again for adding this information here! I'm saving it for my files!

VANDOO · 22nd March 2014, 03:48 AM

I AM MOVING A FEW PICTURES FROM AN OLD POST ON PIRATE WEAPONS TO ADD TO THIS POST FOR REFRENCE. THERE ARE DRAWINGS OF SEVERAL TYPES OF GRENADE , FIRE BOMB DEVICES AND 3 OLD ISLAMIC CERAMIC GREANADES.

fernando · 22nd March 2014, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... BTW, Fernando, do you still have your excellent clay example you made the fuse for? She was a beaut as well...

Yes ... and i was later cherished with an early real fuse by an illustrious acquaintance; but it so delicate and fragile, that i decided to keep it in an acrylic box and let the fake stay in the grenade.
This Ingolstadt example measures 13,5 cms in diameter and weighs 2680 grs.

.

M ELEY · 22nd March 2014, 11:53 PM

Yes, that's the one! Hey, yours really is bigger than mine!

That fuse is incredible! Hmm, I wonder of which acquaintance you speak?

I love the markings on the outside of yours. Are they some sort of arsenal marking? They really highlight the piece. For that matter, on Barry's examples (thanks for adding these, Vandoo!) we see rather elaborate decorations on those 10th-12 c. grenades. Seems odd to produce such artistic expression on an item meant to be quickly destroyed? I first thought they were just to add a better gripping surface, but now I'm not so sure.

21st March 2014, 02:34 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes you are, Nando! Yes, you are! I'm very psyched to get a bit of good news for a change (I had a particularly bad day otherwise!). In Michael's newest thread in incendiary arrows, he posted pics of Italian glass/clay grenades that are nearly spot-on for mine! Not to say mine is Italian, but I think that it cinches it that it is indeed a bombard/incendiary. Typically, when I present a 'mystery piece', it usually ends up being something mundane (As in 'Hey, I just liked up a cool Malabar Moplah knife!!! and then, it's -'Sorry, old chap, that's a Brazilian pizza cutter! ). Nice to have found something for a change!! Last edited by M ELEY; 21st March 2014 at 08:40 AM.

22nd March 2014, 03:48 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM MOVING A FEW PICTURES FROM AN OLD POST ON PIRATE WEAPONS TO ADD TO THIS POST FOR REFRENCE. THERE ARE DRAWINGS OF SEVERAL TYPES OF GRENADE , FIRE BOMB DEVICES AND 3 OLD ISLAMIC CERAMIC GREANADES. Attached Images

19th March 2014, 02:58 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Yes, Michael, you really did come through for me and I truly value your knowledge on these. I read your other thread from end to end, but didn't post this there until I knew it might be the real deal. I do hope the scholar you mentioned might have something to add as well. Fernando- But of course I would need one of these if I am to take any ships in the Indies! Cap'n Mark Nice find on the grenade launcher, Marcus! I've always been fascinated by the flintlock musket types with widened barrel. Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!? The interesting thing about mine is that it is completely hollow, not like the thicker examples such as the size-ways viewed illustration of a small pocket amid the thick clay 'walls'. Although not eggshell thin, this piece seems made to shatter on impact. Although small, it would have held a similar amount of powder due to the open cavity. Perhaps it was only used to ignite flammable textiles? Distract an opponent with a small flash of powder? In Gilkerson, he mentions stink pots and smoke pots being made of breakable pottery, but unfortunately doesn't show any pics of such items. To date, I have only seen one verified stink pot from an Elizabethan wreck, complete with barnacles. It looked basically like a clay jar with small ahndles on either side, but was flat bottomed. I've seen the early stink pots and clay incendiaries from the Middle East dating to the Crusades, but they were also larger affairs of mostly gray clay.

19th March 2014, 08:25 AM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Hi Michael, Thank you, i will investigate M Eley, could the grenade of yours be some sort of post medievalish molotov cocktail? In Michael's thread about incendiaries, there is also a part about incendiary quoites which probably would have splashed around when lit and cause flesh melting burns Though the quoites are solid, i am sure that there is also a liquid exuivalent (maybe just oil/tar with sulphur)? pure guess work of course

19th March 2014, 09:02 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Marcus, I imagine that is very possible. In naval warefare, there was Greek fire that was contained in vessels. In maritime/pirate tradition, there were stink pots, which contained foul-smelling weeds, animal dung, sulfur, etc, and made to shatter and spray on impact! (lovely to get hit with the rank stuff- ). I'm hoping that perhaps the material mine is made from might shed some light on what nationality, era, or area of design. I know it's crazy, but the reason I asked about Spanish colonials and if they had grenadoes is because the pottery material mine is made from reminds me of Pueblo Indian pottery- that black, brittle clay from the American Southwest. Anyway, jst thinking aloud!

21st March 2014, 11:53 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark, I brought those Italian grenades over here to your thread as well; they deserved it. The caption reads that the first two grenades are dated to ca. 1700, the third 18th c., the fourth and sixth 18th/19th c., and #6 is 18th c. And I wish you had more often the chance to detect something really valuable! Best, Michael Attached Images

21st March 2014, 08:41 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Ahhh, a snuff container used by Blackbeard, no doubt! I think I'll just hang on to this one for a while! BTW, Fernando, do you still have your excellent clay example you made the fuse for? She was a beaut as well. I'd love to add a bunch of different grenade types to the collection. Always fascinating to see what people come up with to hurl at each other! That paper grenade still comes to mind!! That example was on this forum, I think? Michael, thanks again for adding this information here! I'm saving it for my files!

22nd March 2014, 11:53 PM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, that's the one! Hey, yours really is bigger than mine! That fuse is incredible! Hmm, I wonder of which acquaintance you speak? I love the markings on the outside of yours. Are they some sort of arsenal marking? They really highlight the piece. For that matter, on Barry's examples (thanks for adding these, Vandoo!) we see rather elaborate decorations on those 10th-12 c. grenades. Seems odd to produce such artistic expression on an item meant to be quickly destroyed? I first thought they were just to add a better gripping surface, but now I'm not so sure.