When is a keris legitimate?

erikscollectables · 3rd March 2014, 07:49 PM

For my collection I have a preference for keris that have been in the Netherlands from the end of the Dutch Colonial period of Indonesia or before so 1950 or earlier - I think this concept is only used by some Dutch collectors and obviously is a "backward" way of thinking but it still stuck with me and applies to about 75% of the keris found here so not much of a limitation...and does not guarantee a legitimate keris in my own definition either...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Erik, I cannot disagree with your idea of what entitles a keris to be regarded as legitimate, but as you have already mentioned, and as I believe we all understand, this definition that you have framed would need to be applied within a window of time.

In the case of the keris, at least in respect of the Javanese keris, the intended purpose of a keris can often be identified by application of the principles of tangguh. When applied by a person with a good understanding of how this system functions the determination of the classification can point the way towards the intended purpose of the keris.

Bob A · 4th March 2014, 12:23 AM

Groneman has been procured, and I regret to say I primarily look at the pictures. I'll read it eventually, no doubt.

Also, a site I visited had a reasonably extensive bibliography, and recommended Visible and Invisible Realms as an important source; while perhaps more suited to scholars than the masses, I've found it of interest so far - say, a hundred pages to date.

I didn't mean to imply - although it is perhaps the most reasonable way to look at my statement - that I/we are wandering in a fog; more like we follow our particular paths without recourse to a common or agreed-upon map of the terrain, be it visible or invisible.

Regarding choice of keris to collect, I merely follow my basic principle of obtaining what I find interesting and affordable, at such times as keris, interest and fisc coincide. Whether the interest will be retained as knowledge and experience increase is unknowable at this time and place. But tuition must be paid; knowledge may follow, but is never guaranteed.

David · 4th March 2014, 06:39 AM

Visible and Invisible Realms is one of the most valuable books i have read to date in regards to understanding the culture from which the Balinese keris comes and how it fits into the scheme of that culture.

A. G. Maisey · 4th March 2014, 09:30 PM

And when we have a grasp of Balinese culture and society, we are well on the way to an understanding of the roots of Javanese culture and society.

Yes, certainly Jawa is different now to what it was during the Hindu-Buddha period, but even today those roots are still there, they anchor present day Jawa and help to make sense of the way in which Islam has grown in Jawa. Like the roots of an old tree, the Hindu-Buddha roots of Jawa are often well hidden, but push against the tree and you can feel the existence of the roots, exactly the same as if you push against tradition in Jawa.

Bob, personally I'm not all that keen on Groneman. OK, I'm an heretic and I should be burnt at the stake, but when I measure what Groneman reports as having seen against what I have seen and what I know is possible, I am forced to the conclusion that much of what he wrote was the product of supposition, or perhaps he just did not understand. To me, Groneman has a value from an historical perspective, but that's about all.

There is one book, or booklet if you will, that really should be on the shelf of every person who has a keris interest, and that is "World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. This is the only publication of which I know, on keris, that does not contain a single error. There are things in it that I do not necessarily agree with, but that does not mean that these things are wrong, only that we were taught by different teachers.

Because the keris came from Jawa, and because Jawa is really the only place where there has been an unbroken continuance of keris culture, for anybody to gain an understanding of the keris, they must begin with Jawa. There is no alternative. Not if one wishes to understand.

But to begin with Jawa one also needs a fine understanding of the Jawa-Bali nexus.

One does not learn the keris by trying to study the keris, but rather by a study of the culture, society, art, & history of the places where it is found. It can help a lot if one also has at the very least an understanding of Bahasa Indonesia.

But if all one wishes to do is to collect objects because the objects themselves appeal, well, that's OK too, but it really does diminish pleasure and understanding to a point where sooner or later many people who function at only this level get bored and move on to collecting WWII bayonets, or perhaps SE Asian textiles.

erikscollectables · 9th March 2014, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There is one book, or booklet if you will, that really should be on the shelf of every person who has a keris interest, and that is "World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. This is the only publication of which I know, on keris, that does not contain a single error. There are things in it that I do not necessarily agree with, but that does not mean that these things are wrong, only that we were taught by different teachers.

Found a copy of the book and ordered it - looking forward to reading it!

Regards, Erik

BluErf · 19th March 2014, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

One does not learn the keris by trying to study the keris, but rather by a study of the culture, society, art, & history of the places where it is found. It can help a lot if one also has at the very least an understanding of Bahasa Indonesia.

Indeed! I find myself reading the history of Southeast Asia, to better understand the context in which the keris evolved and existed, and it adds immense colour to the collecting of kerises. It is rewarding for me to draw the linkages between the kerises across time and geography through the lens of history. Gradually, different major keris archetypes "fall into places", and I see how they have turned out the way they have, from trade, political and ethnic influences. Right now, I am trying to draw the linkage and evolution pathway between the tajong keris and the Cirebon kerises, which I believe is the prototype of the former.

Internalizing the aesthetics of a region is also key to appreciating a keris from a region more deeply, not to mention help with identifying imitations. I find that it is very difficult to do this for the entire keris archipelago, so I can only focus deeply on one keris region at a time. For now, it is the Northern Malay keris world.

4th March 2014, 12:23 AM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Groneman has been procured, and I regret to say I primarily look at the pictures. I'll read it eventually, no doubt. Also, a site I visited had a reasonably extensive bibliography, and recommended Visible and Invisible Realms as an important source; while perhaps more suited to scholars than the masses, I've found it of interest so far - say, a hundred pages to date. I didn't mean to imply - although it is perhaps the most reasonable way to look at my statement - that I/we are wandering in a fog; more like we follow our particular paths without recourse to a common or agreed-upon map of the terrain, be it visible or invisible. Regarding choice of keris to collect, I merely follow my basic principle of obtaining what I find interesting and affordable, at such times as keris, interest and fisc coincide. Whether the interest will be retained as knowledge and experience increase is unknowable at this time and place. But tuition must be paid; knowledge may follow, but is never guaranteed.

4th March 2014, 06:39 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Visible and Invisible Realms is one of the most valuable books i have read to date in regards to understanding the culture from which the Balinese keris comes and how it fits into the scheme of that culture.

4th March 2014, 09:30 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	And when we have a grasp of Balinese culture and society, we are well on the way to an understanding of the roots of Javanese culture and society. Yes, certainly Jawa is different now to what it was during the Hindu-Buddha period, but even today those roots are still there, they anchor present day Jawa and help to make sense of the way in which Islam has grown in Jawa. Like the roots of an old tree, the Hindu-Buddha roots of Jawa are often well hidden, but push against the tree and you can feel the existence of the roots, exactly the same as if you push against tradition in Jawa. Bob, personally I'm not all that keen on Groneman. OK, I'm an heretic and I should be burnt at the stake, but when I measure what Groneman reports as having seen against what I have seen and what I know is possible, I am forced to the conclusion that much of what he wrote was the product of supposition, or perhaps he just did not understand. To me, Groneman has a value from an historical perspective, but that's about all. There is one book, or booklet if you will, that really should be on the shelf of every person who has a keris interest, and that is "World of the Javanese Keris" by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. This is the only publication of which I know, on keris, that does not contain a single error. There are things in it that I do not necessarily agree with, but that does not mean that these things are wrong, only that we were taught by different teachers. Because the keris came from Jawa, and because Jawa is really the only place where there has been an unbroken continuance of keris culture, for anybody to gain an understanding of the keris, they must begin with Jawa. There is no alternative. Not if one wishes to understand. But to begin with Jawa one also needs a fine understanding of the Jawa-Bali nexus. One does not learn the keris by trying to study the keris, but rather by a study of the culture, society, art, & history of the places where it is found. It can help a lot if one also has at the very least an understanding of Bahasa Indonesia. But if all one wishes to do is to collect objects because the objects themselves appeal, well, that's OK too, but it really does diminish pleasure and understanding to a point where sooner or later many people who function at only this level get bored and move on to collecting WWII bayonets, or perhaps SE Asian textiles.