VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 08:20 PM

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

asomotif · 26th February 2014, 09:53 PM

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

Maurice · 5th May 2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

Hi Willem,

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

I was a kind of in a hurry, but if I'm right it was from a donation somewhere in the 20th century..

Maurice · 5th May 2014, 06:07 PM

Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early!
(From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg).

Maurice · 5th May 2014, 09:51 PM

PS I think the VOC mark would make the item much more valuable to collect.
For instance how much would you give for the lid of a chest with VOC mark, and how much would you pay for the same lid without the VOC mark?

:-)

asomotif · 8th May 2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

Hello Maurice,

You're making the best of your holidays !

Thank you for sharing these pictures.
Interesting to see a blade with "M" Middelburg marking.

The javanese style pedang with silver scabbard is realy great.

Best regards,
Willem

Fried Krom · 18th May 2015, 01:04 PM

All,

Attached some pictures of my VOC boarding-cutlass.

Who can identify the hilt for me?

Thanks in advance,

Fried Krom

Maurice · 18th May 2015, 04:52 PM

Hello Fried,

You have a good old Batak podang with VOC blade.
I have seen several podangs with VOC blade and it is always nice seeing one pop up here or there.

Best wishes,
Maurice

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2014, 10:06 PM

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.

In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2014, 11:07 PM

Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet

In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with.
These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell ,
kinda like us

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2014, 11:28 PM

Yeah, I guess so Jim.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds.

Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot.

That is not the case today.

asomotif · 27th February 2014, 12:17 PM

I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago.
I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures.
But they give once more an impression of the blade form.

At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang.
To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum.
To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay.
(I am pretty normal working class btw)
And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-)

best regards,
Willem

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th February 2014, 01:32 PM

Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th February 2014, 01:34 PM

Their operation was huge ... backed by an in built militia and private navy...

26th February 2014, 09:53 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum". Attached Images

5th May 2014, 06:07 PM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,456	Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early! (From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg). Attached Images

5th May 2014, 09:51 PM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,456	PS I think the VOC mark would make the item much more valuable to collect. For instance how much would you give for the lid of a chest with VOC mark, and how much would you pay for the same lid without the VOC mark? :-) Attached Images

18th May 2015, 01:04 PM	#7
Fried Krom Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: N-E of the Netherlands Posts: 3	All, Attached some pictures of my VOC boarding-cutlass. Who can identify the hilt for me? Thanks in advance, Fried Krom Attached Images

27th February 2014, 12:17 PM	#12
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago. I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures. But they give once more an impression of the blade form. At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang. To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum. To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay. (I am pretty normal working class btw) And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-) best regards, Willem Attached Images

26th February 2014, 08:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions. Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use. You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves. Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

18th May 2015, 04:52 PM	#8
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,456	Hello Fried, You have a good old Batak podang with VOC blade. I have seen several podangs with VOC blade and it is always nice seeing one pop up here or there. Best wishes, Maurice

26th February 2014, 10:06 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim. My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that. Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed. But we tend to forget what wages were back then. I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won. Now tell me:- how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle? In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK. For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955. What is today's value of a keris such as I describe? Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris. In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

26th February 2014, 11:07 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with. These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell , kinda like us

26th February 2014, 11:28 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yeah, I guess so Jim. Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds. Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot. That is not the case today.

27th February 2014, 01:32 PM	#13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th February 2014 at 06:17 AM.

27th February 2014, 01:34 PM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Their operation was huge ... backed by an in built militia and private navy... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th February 2014 at 06:17 AM.