The Original Dhu'l-Faqar

[AhmedH]

Salaams all!

It seems that, in this site, there's little to no interest in the early medieval Arab swords. It's quite clear that the real interest is in more recent swords and other edged weapons that could be owned privately. I understand this well.

Nonetheless, if anyone is interested in information regarding swords or other weapons that date back to the early centuries of Islam, I'd be more than happy to send my help.

Best wishes to all!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams all!

It seems that, in this site, there's little to no interest in the early medieval Arab swords. It's quite clear that the real interest is in more recent swords and other edged weapons that could be owned privately. I understand this well.

Nonetheless, if anyone is interested in information regarding swords or other weapons that date back to the early centuries of Islam, I'd be more than happy to send my help.

Best wishes to all!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

Salaams Ahmed.. Not so ! This is an ultra specialized subject Ahmed and we are lucky to have your input on this hugely important Iconic weapon... of equal importance to say the Sword Excalibur in Western parlance and utterly vital in Eastern terms being of such provenance.
As you know I am of the opinion that this is a classic and I feel certain it will be admitted to that hall of fame soon... I would ask you for some pictures so that they can also speak volumes for your thesis and so that members and others can see at a glance what is staring up at them ... This subject is not only of vital importance from the Islamic viewpoint but across the frontiers of sword research ... and such is its importance that the Topkapi will have to make a special room for it if they have not already done so!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[VANDOO]

ITS NOT A LACK OF INTREST IN THESE SWORDS. ITS JUST THAT MOST OF US HAVE NO KNOWLEGE IN THE FIELD AND CAN ONLY FOLLOW IT SO FAR AND CONTRIBUTE LITTLE.
ALL POSTS COME TO A POINT WHERE EVERYTHING KNOWN HAS BEEN SAID AND THEY DRY UP. THE BEAUTY OF THE FORUM IS THE TOPIC IS PRESERVED AND CAN BE REFRENCED BY NEW PEOPLE AND WHEN NEW INFORMATION BECOMES AVAILABLE THE TOPIC CAN REOPEN AND NEW INFORMATION BE ADDED. WE ALL HATE TO SEE A TOPIC WE FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT CLOSE BUT ITS NOT THE END ITS JUST A PAUSE TO REGROUP AND FIND NEW IDEAS AND INFORMATION.

[AhmedH]

Salaams to Ibrahiim, Vandoo, and to all!

I did not mean "Dhu'l-Faqar" in particular. I meant ALL ARAB SWORDS dating back to the early centuries of Islam. As I've said in the introduction of my composition regarding "Dhu'l-Faqar", I have given almost equal care and study for ALL the Arab swords that refer to the period 600 to 1258 CE.

Ibrahiim, thanks a lot for your very kind and encouraging words. But you have to understand that I'm relatively new to this forum, and I would feel as an intruder if I kept on making new threads. I would've wished that you, Iain, or any member here with very good knowledge on Arab swords to start new threads regarding that. This is why I've decided to wait for that, but unfortunately, nothing popped out till now; except for your great composition(s) regarding the Omani Battle Sword; although there aren't examples that date to the above-mentioned date (600- 1258 CE).

Had it never occurred that someone would come out with a new thread like: "Comparison between European and Islamic swords during the Crusades" or "The swords and armour of the warriors of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates" or anything of that sort?

I would very much like to hear your opinions...all of you. I would be glad if you came up with new ideas. Frankly, I believe that most -if not all- of you have new ideas regarding these topics.

That said, I find myself completely at the disposal of this great forum, and all its great members.

Best regards to all,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams to Ibrahiim, Vandoo, and to all!

I did not mean "Dhu'l-Faqar" in particular. I meant ALL ARAB SWORDS dating back to the early centuries of Islam. As I've said in the introduction of my composition regarding "Dhu'l-Faqar", I have given almost equal care and study for ALL the Arab swords that refer to the period 600 to 1258 CE.

Ibrahiim, thanks a lot for your very kind and encouraging words. But you have to understand that I'm relatively new to this forum, and I would feel as an intruder if I kept on making new threads. I would've wished that you, Iain, or any member here with very good knowledge on Arab swords to start new threads regarding that. This is why I've decided to wait for that, but unfortunately, nothing popped out till now; except for your great composition(s) regarding the Omani Battle Sword; although there aren't examples that date to the above-mentioned date (600- 1258 CE).

Had it never occurred that someone would come out with a new thread like: "Comparison between European and Islamic swords during the Crusades" or "The swords and armour of the warriors of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates" or anything of that sort?

I would very much like to hear your opinions...all of you. I would be glad if you came up with new ideas. Frankly, I believe that most -if not all- of you have new ideas regarding these topics.

That said, I find myself completely at the disposal of this great forum, and all its great members.

Best regards to all,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed, Yes I know how frustrating it may seem... but the only person I know of... on this forum who can tackle the great subjects ("Comparison between European and Islamic swords during the Crusades" or "The swords and armour of the warriors of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates" or anything of that sort?) is you!

With such a highly specialised subject as the "Dhu'l-Faqar" you see how easy it is for an entire and brilliant thesis to be put down in a few words echoing the so called masters you have already met.. and who equally dont believe a word of it !!

Do not be put off by them. Your thesis is well placed on our Forum. Hopefully it will achieve recognition.

I am in agreement with Vandoo and urge you to keep at this one... and add some pictorial shots to enhance the cosmetics of your thesis... I look forward to the day when it enters The Classics and urge again Moderators to react favourably in this regard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ahmed, Yes I know how frustrating it may seem... but the only person I know of... on this forum who can tackle the great subjects ("Comparison between European and Islamic swords during the Crusades" or "The swords and armour of the warriors of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates" or anything of that sort?) is you!

With such a highly specialised subject as the "Dhu'l-Faqar" you see how easy it is for an entire and brilliant thesis to be put down in a few words echoing the so called masters you have already met.. and who equally dont believe a word of it !!

Do not be put off by them. Your thesis is well placed on our Forum. Hopefully it will achieve recognition.

I am in agreement with Vandoo and urge you to keep at this one... and add some pictorial shots to enhance the cosmetics of your thesis... I look forward to the day when it enters The Classics and urge again Moderators to react favourably in this regard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim!

Thank you very much for your kind and encouraging words. I felt very flattered, buddy! I agree with you regarding enhancing the cosmetics of my thesis with more pictorial shots, and I intend to start new threads regarding other Arab swords of the early centuries of Islam.

Perhaps you should give your opinion about your favorite type of sword in this thread here (please!):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18180

See that broad-bladed straight double-edged sword; posted by Jasper?! Man! I'm very weak in front of these types of swords! You know what I mean, don't you?!

Once again, I'm very thankful for your very encouraging reply, Ibrahiim.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ahmed,
I would like to note that for a newcomer to this forum, you have already established a considerable footprint, and your superb dissertation is compellingly presented and fascinating. As you have well noted, in many cases this very topic and subject matter has been inadequately approached and not properly pursued in certain degree and aspects.

With research in virtually any field, it always remains a work in progress, and as Vandoo has wisely noted, it is not a lack of interest which results in decrease in dynamics of thread topics, but that discussion of material at hand has run its course. The wonderful thing here, again as well noted, is that threads sometimes dormant for years, are ever revisited by persons searching the internet or new researches begun on the same topic. As seen recently, and often over time, these threads are recharged by either new evidence or revitalizing new questions or approaches.

In my own research I often use the internet to augment the resources in my own library and notes, and inevitably threads and posts here appear, much to my delight! It is great to see the work all of us here have done as a team to advance the knowledge and understanding of these topics.

In your previous post you noted you feel too new here to place new threads as you sense you would be intruding. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Actually you clearly have already thought of wonderfully placed thesis' in your suggestions, and it seems that you would be the best person to place such topics.
If I may, I would suggest however that the approaches be more specific and partitioned. One of the biggest problems in discourse on forums is that key topics which come up later in threads are often lost in the volume of the thread itself mostly due to the title heading.
For example, this thread is addressed of course to Dhu'l-faqar, not to the broader scope you mention, therefore many readers and contributors may not realize the subcategories exist within.

I would suggest that new threads addressing the topics suggested be initiated outside the perameters of this one. Again, queries which are placed too broadly instantly outscope themselves, such as 'what kind of swords did the Byzantines use?'. It is bewildering to try to fathom just what people of this huge empire; what period; what regions etc are being considered.
Naturally this analogy is simply a suggestive illustration and of course not directed toward you or anyone in particular and meant as an example.

One last thing I would note here. These forums are visited by a vast scope of individuals from advanced academics such as yourself, to collectors whether new or remarkably experienced; the curious; historians; dealers; writers; journalists etc etc. This will result in quite varied approaches and manner in postings with often vastly different perspectives.
With this kind of diversity, it is always rather amazing that we are able to accomplish the wonderful discussions we have here, and as seen, have had for years. We are fortunate to have you with us! and thank you again for your outstanding contributions here.

All very best regards,
Jim

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ahmed,
I would like to note that for a newcomer to this forum, you have already established a considerable footprint, and your superb dissertation is compellingly presented and fascinating. As you have well noted, in many cases this very topic and subject matter has been inadequately approached and not properly pursued in certain degree and aspects.

With research in virtually any field, it always remains a work in progress, and as Vandoo has wisely noted, it is not a lack of interest which results in decrease in dynamics of thread topics, but that discussion of material at hand has run its course. The wonderful thing here, again as well noted, is that threads sometimes dormant for years, are ever revisited by persons searching the internet or new researches begun on the same topic. As seen recently, and often over time, these threads are recharged by either new evidence or revitalizing new questions or approaches.

In my own research I often use the internet to augment the resources in my own library and notes, and inevitably threads and posts here appear, much to my delight! It is great to see the work all of us here have done as a team to advance the knowledge and understanding of these topics.

In your previous post you noted you feel too new here to place new threads as you sense you would be intruding. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Actually you clearly have already thought of wonderfully placed thesis' in your suggestions, and it seems that you would be the best person to place such topics.
If I may, I would suggest however that the approaches be more specific and partitioned. One of the biggest problems in discourse on forums is that key topics which come up later in threads are often lost in the volume of the thread itself mostly due to the title heading.
For example, this thread is addressed of course to Dhu'l-faqar, not to the broader scope you mention, therefore many readers and contributors may not realize the subcategories exist within.

I would suggest that new threads addressing the topics suggested be initiated outside the perameters of this one. Again, queries which are placed too broadly instantly outscope themselves, such as 'what kind of swords did the Byzantines use?'. It is bewildering to try to fathom just what people of this huge empire; what period; what regions etc are being considered.
Naturally this analogy is simply a suggestive illustration and of course not directed toward you or anyone in particular and meant as an example.

One last thing I would note here. These forums are visited by a vast scope of individuals from advanced academics such as yourself, to collectors whether new or remarkably experienced; the curious; historians; dealers; writers; journalists etc etc. This will result in quite varied approaches and manner in postings with often vastly different perspectives.
With this kind of diversity, it is always rather amazing that we are able to accomplish the wonderful discussions we have here, and as seen, have had for years. We are fortunate to have you with us! and thank you again for your outstanding contributions here.

All very best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim!

Thank you very much for your generous and morale-raising reply, Sir! Believe it or not: I was intending to mention you by name in my last posting; and in fact I did, but I erased the request for you to answer my posting out of fear of appearing to be arrogant; yet your generosity and concern have made me at a loss of words, Sir. I'm very grateful to your reply.

Sir, I promise to follow what you advised me to do; in your generous and encouraging reply. Once again, I must admit that I feel that I've come to the right place by becoming a member in this great site with its fabulous forums. I've already gained a lot of information from reading and following many threads, and I'm extremely happy because of that.

Once again, I find myself completely at your disposal, Sir.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams all!

It seems that, in this site, there's little to no interest in the early medieval Arab swords. It's quite clear that the real interest is in more recent swords and other edged weapons that could be owned privately. I understand this well.

Nonetheless, if anyone is interested in information regarding swords or other weapons that date back to the early centuries of Islam, I'd be more than happy to send my help.

Best wishes to all!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

Hello,
I am very interested in early swords of all locations. However the information I wish to know has not been gathered. The "nuts and bolts" of swords is the steel...and we have scant few analysis of the steels in these blades...and I fear we never will.

Ric

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Hello,
I am very interested in early swords of all locations. However the information I wish to know has not been gathered. The "nuts and bolts" of swords is the steel...and we have scant few analysis of the steels in these blades...and I fear we never will.

Ric

Ric
I just noticed your post, and of course it is well established that your field is metallurgy , which has always been far beyond my own understanding. With your expertise in this topic, you would be the exact person to address this aspect of swords, and in threads focused on specific instances. There have been many studies made scientifically on blades (several early Islamic blades if I recall were actually sacrificed to this end), and the work of Dr. Ann Fuerbach has been phenomenal. Others such as Panseri, Figiel and numerous other works have well touched on many aspects, but as we have noted, there is far more to be done.

As noted in my post to Ahmed, these thesis' and titles are on topics which need to be addressed, and these are discussion forums which are the exact venue where this can be done.

All the best,
Jim

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Hello,
I am very interested in early swords of all locations. However the information I wish to know has not been gathered. The "nuts and bolts" of swords is the steel...and we have scant few analysis of the steels in these blades...and I fear we never will.

Ric

Salaams Ric!

Thank you very much for your reply. I really understand how you feel, but I also feel handicapped to fulfill your desire for analyzing these swords; or even reading about earlier analysis of such valuable sword-blades. I'm sorry, but you know that this is almost impossible to happen.

One question, Sir: Have you ever analyzed a blade of a European medieval sword before? If yes, what did it take to do it? I mean: Did you completely destroy the sword-blade for analysis, or took a small piece of the blade, or what? Please explain, Sir.

Waiting anxiously for your reply, Ric!

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Richard Furrer]

There are hundreds of metallurgical analysis of medieval and earlier European blades and dozens of chemical analysis...many published in various articles in "Gladius".
In general a small slice is taken from the blade (a triangle cut from edge to center not all the way across) and this is cold mounted in resin and polished then etched and photographed under the microscope. Pieces can also be spectrographed for chemistry. Neither is all that hard to do well, but there is a procedure.
Such can be done from poor examples of good provenance...many museums have such pieces which are not good enough to display and some even just sit and rust away on a shelf as conservation funds are low.

Once enough body of information is amassed one can make assumptions as to what is of a certain time and place. It makes fakes that much more difficult to pass as originals.

I suggest the work of Drs. Alan Williams and David Edge of The Wallace. As well as Drs. Janet Lang, Paul Craddock and Barry Ager of the British Museum. The Royal Armouries did some good work till they sacked the dept.
These are only a few British researchers..there have counterparts all over Europe.

Ric

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

There are hundreds of metallurgical analysis of medieval and earlier European blades and dozens of chemical analysis...many published in various articles in "Gladius".
In general a small slice is taken from the blade (a triangle cut from edge to center not all the way across) and this is cold mounted in resin and polished then etched and photographed under the microscope. Pieces can also be spectrographed for chemistry. Neither is all that hard to do well, but there is a procedure.
Such can be done from poor examples of good provenance...many museums have such pieces which are not good enough to display and some even just sit and rust away on a shelf as conservation funds are low.

Once enough body of information is amassed one can make assumptions as to what is of a certain time and place. It makes fakes that much more difficult to pass as originals.

I suggest the work of Drs. Alan Williams and David Edge of The Wallace. As well as Drs. Janet Lang, Paul Craddock and Barry Ager of the British Museum. The Royal Armouries did some good work till they sacked the dept.
These are only a few British researchers..there have counterparts all over Europe.

Ric

Salaams Ric!

Thank you very much for your clarification. I have Ewart Oakeshott's "Archaeology of Weapons" and it includes analyses of some pattern-welded blades; as well as homogenous non-crucible steel sword-blades. I remember the average percentage of carbon in the pattern-welded blades was anywhere from 0.4 to 0.6%, while the carbon content in the Ulfber(h)t sword-blades was around 0.75% on average. Hank Reinhardt once wrote that the carbon content in European medieval swords could have reached as high as 1.2%, but he said the average percentage of carbon was around 0.8%.

Regarding the early Arab sword-blades, these were usually forged from Indian crucible steel. I do not know if any of the swords in Topkapi or the Askeri Museum in Istanbul were analyzed. But for Indian crucible steel, the average carbon content in the sword-blades was around 1.4 - 1.8%. I know that the appearance of the damask wave patterns also depends upon certain trace elements, like Vanadium and Molybdenum...and even Manganese may play a role. There are other proofs for the high-carbon content in these Arab sword-blades, like what the sources said that they became brittle during very cold temperatures. Also, the procedures mentioned in the early Islamic sources in order to know a good blade from a bad one, are very important to me.

Perhaps there are private collectors who maybe willing to donate one or more of their Arab sword-blades for analyses.

BTW, the Arab sword attributed to the Holy Prophet (PBUH); that is now preserved in al-Hussein Mosque in Cairo, Egypt has been chemically analyzed in the laboratories of the Cairo University. That was in the mid-1970s. The results have proven that it was forged from Indian crucible steel, with pearlite and cementite particles; if I could remember. The results were published in the Journal of the Faculty of Archaeology-Cairo University in January 17th 1976.

Thank you for giving me the names of the references that include the results of the analyses done to many medieval European sword-blades.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein