16th-17th Battle Axes From German and Swiss Armories

kronckew · 29th January 2014, 11:27 AM

i almost added that dunkel lager is good for you. my favourite here is a schwartz beer, guinness. also known as road tar

schmeckt aber gut.

p.s. - they should have free wifi - it's the 21st century after all.

M ELEY · 29th January 2014, 03:17 PM

Thank you, Michael, as always, for this exceptional thread on battle axes. As a collector of boarding axes and trade axes, it is always fascinating to see the battle-worthy predecessors of the hammer pole axes and fur trade items on this side of the pond. As axes did indeed go to sea, I imagine that types like these were present on the earliest vessels making their way over to the New World. I do hope your hospital stay goes well and we'll be waiting to hear from you on your return!
Mark

VANDOO · 29th January 2014, 06:48 PM

THANKS FOR THE EXCELLENT POST ON POLE ARMS AND AXES. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FOND OF THEM AND HAD A SMALL HATCHET I TREASURED AS A CHILD. I ALWAYS LIKED THE AX AS A WEAPON PERHAPS A BIT OF NORSEMAN IN ME.

I HOPE YOU GET THE HEALTH ISSUES ALL STRAIGHTENED OUT SOONEST AND MAKE YOUR ESCAPE FROM THE HOSPITAL ASAP. ITS TOO BAD THERE ISN'T A COMPUTER AVAILABLE AS IT WOULD SURE MAKE THE TIME PASS MORE QUICKLY AND YOU WILL BE MISSED HERE ON THE FORUM, GET WELL AND HURRY BACK.

fernando · 29th January 2014, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

... I HOPE YOU GET THE HEALTH ISSUES ALL STRAIGHTENED OUT SOONEST AND MAKE YOUR ESCAPE FROM THE HOSPITAL ASAP. ITS TOO BAD THERE ISN'T A COMPUTER AVAILABLE AS IT WOULD SURE MAKE THE TIME PASS MORE QUICKLY AND YOU WILL BE MISSED HERE ON THE FORUM, GET WELL AND HURRY BACK.

I guess Michael has already left to Hospital/s and unable to read all your hopes and wishes. But he is tough as hell and will be back with us in no time. I will try and follow up his situation.

Matchlock · 27th August 2014, 01:40 PM

Hi there,

I just found this booklet.

Please note that the illustration is NOT from the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance Age but was only done around 1900.

Thus it cannot be called a historic document (contemporary source of illustration; German: Bildquelle), but in fact is a historizing piece of artwork trying to picture Swiss mercenaries (German: Landsknechte), their costumes and weapons the way they most probably looked 500 years ago.
Still it is mere imagination, and of no real historic value to any serious student or scholar of arms and armor.

It is to put the record perfectly straight, for these two contraries, why I reattached the original and contemporary illustration done by Hans Burgkmair the Elder, in around 1525.

Keeping this difference in mind is important, and BASIC.

Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations:

There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars.

Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him.
The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is.
He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving.

Winners got scars, too - the title of the biography of Johnny Cash, by Christopher S. Wren.

This faded and torn paperback of 1971 has accompanied, and followed me.
Almost everywhere I went, or tried to go.
It's has been on my desk, and on my mind, and it has lived like a song in my soul.
Just like John's and Kris's songs.
For more than 40 years.
My left hand is resting on this book.
Right now.
It soothes the tremor.

And Kris's wonderful album Closer to the Bone of 2009 is on my HiFi system.

Please think about, and feel, the responsibility that all of us have - interested in, and living with/collecting historic arms.
ARMS ARE A HEAVY BURDEN, for reminding us of the real 'nature' of the greedy inhuman humans that we are, the self-acclaimed 'crown of creation' - though humble we should be.

Best as ever,

Michael Trömner
Rebenstr. 9
D-93326 Abensberg
Lower Bavaria, Germany

Self-established Academic Medievalist
Graduated from Regensburg University in 1982
Stipendiary recipient and Member of the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn
Author of BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005
Member of vikingsword.com, with more than 4.100 threads and posts since 2008
M. of the Arms & Armour Society, London since 1991 M. of the Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin since 1987
Expertises in European weapons, ironworks and furniture of the 14th through 17th centuries
Preservation and scientific documentation of museum collections

Mediävist, Redakteur und Fachjournalist
Staatsexamen Universität Regensburg, 1982
Stipendiat und Mitglied der Hochbegabtenförderung Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn
Testredakteur bei STEREO, HIFI exklusiv und FonoForum 1979-1984
Autor der Monographie BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005
Mitglied von vikingsword.com mit über 4.100 wiss. Publikationen seit 2008
M. Arms & Armour Society, London, seit 1991
M. Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, seit 1987
Sachverständiger für Waffen, Eisenarbeiten und Möbel des 14. bis 17. Jhs.
Konservierung, Inventarisierung und wissenschaftliche Dokumentation musealer Sammlungen

S.Workman · 28th August 2014, 12:11 AM

Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations:

There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars.

[/size][/font]Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, [font=Georgia][size=3]exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him.
The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is.
He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving.

These axes are cool, this post is great, and this is a hell of an observation. If you don't mind my asking, what health problem do you have that is putting you on the skids? Sorry for the weird appearance of this post, the quote feature is not a huge fan of highlighted material. Or maybe I am just confused.

Shakethetrees · 28th August 2014, 04:32 AM

I got this about twenty five years ago in Normandy, in a small town I cannot remember as I was just passing through on a day trip from Paris.

It is inscribed "YL" or "VL", and is a little over 19 inches along the top from the edge to the heel, and is 15 inches from the heel to the butt of the haft, which appears to be oak and full of worm holes.

The haft, or what's left of it, is loose in the socket. It is roughly pentagonal at the socket.

The form appears to be very old, but I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say.

fernando · 29th January 2014, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... As axes did indeed go to sea, I imagine that types like these were present on the earliest vessels making their way over to the New World...

Meaning you wouldn't mind having a few the ones posted here, in your collection

.

27th August 2014, 01:40 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi there, I just found this booklet. Please note that the illustration is NOT from the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance Age but was only done around 1900. Thus it cannot be called a historic document (contemporary source of illustration; German: Bildquelle), but in fact is a *historizing* piece of artwork trying to picture Swiss mercenaries (German: Landsknechte), their costumes and weapons the way they most probably looked 500 years ago. Still it is mere imagination, and of no real historic value to any serious student or scholar of arms and armor. It is to put the record perfectly straight, for these two contraries, why I reattached the original and contemporary illustration done by Hans Burgkmair the Elder, in around 1525. Keeping this difference in mind is important, and BASIC. Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations: There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars. Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him. The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is. He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving. *Winners got scars, too* - the title of the biography of Johnny Cash, by Christopher S. Wren. This faded and torn paperback of 1971 has accompanied, and followed me. Almost everywhere I went, or tried to go. It's has been on my desk, and on my mind, and it has lived like a song in my soul. Just like John's and Kris's songs. For more than 40 years. My left hand is resting on this book. Right now. It soothes the tremor. And Kris's wonderful album *Closer to the Bone* of 2009 is on my HiFi system. Please think about, and feel, the responsibility that all of us have - interested in, and living with/collecting historic arms. ARMS ARE A HEAVY BURDEN, for reminding us of the real 'nature' of the greedy inhuman humans that we are, the self-acclaimed 'crown of creation' - though humble we should be. Best as ever, Michael Trömner Rebenstr. 9 D-93326 Abensberg Lower Bavaria, Germany Self-established Academic Medievalist Graduated from Regensburg University in 1982 Stipendiary recipient and Member of the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn Author of BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005 Member of vikingsword.com, with more than 4.100 threads and posts since 2008 M. of the Arms & Armour Society, London since 1991 M. of the Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin since 1987 Expertises in European weapons, ironworks and furniture of the 14th through 17th centuries Preservation and scientific documentation of museum collections Mediävist, Redakteur und Fachjournalist Staatsexamen Universität Regensburg, 1982 Stipendiat und Mitglied der Hochbegabtenförderung Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn Testredakteur bei STEREO, HIFI exklusiv und FonoForum 1979-1984 Autor der Monographie BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005 Mitglied von vikingsword.com mit über 4.100 wiss. Publikationen seit 2008 M. Arms & Armour Society, London, seit 1991 M. Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, seit 1987 Sachverständiger für Waffen, Eisenarbeiten und Möbel des 14. bis 17. Jhs. Konservierung, Inventarisierung und wissenschaftliche Dokumentation musealer Sammlungen Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 27th August 2014 at 08:23 PM.

28th August 2014, 04:32 AM	#7
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Early battle or executioner's axe I got this about twenty five years ago in Normandy, in a small town I cannot remember as I was just passing through on a day trip from Paris. It is inscribed "YL" or "VL", and is a little over 19 inches along the top from the edge to the heel, and is 15 inches from the heel to the butt of the haft, which appears to be oak and full of worm holes. The haft, or what's left of it, is loose in the socket. It is roughly pentagonal at the socket. The form appears to be very old, but I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say. Attached Images

29th January 2014, 11:27 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,235	i almost added that dunkel lager is good for you. my favourite here is a schwartz beer, guinness. also known as road tar schmeckt aber gut. p.s. - they should have free wifi - it's the 21st century after all.

29th January 2014, 03:17 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thank you, Michael, as always, for this exceptional thread on battle axes. As a collector of boarding axes and trade axes, it is always fascinating to see the battle-worthy predecessors of the hammer pole axes and fur trade items on this side of the pond. As axes did indeed go to sea, I imagine that types like these were present on the earliest vessels making their way over to the New World. I do hope your hospital stay goes well and we'll be waiting to hear from you on your return! Mark

29th January 2014, 06:48 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THANKS FOR THE EXCELLENT POST ON POLE ARMS AND AXES. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FOND OF THEM AND HAD A SMALL HATCHET I TREASURED AS A CHILD. I ALWAYS LIKED THE AX AS A WEAPON PERHAPS A BIT OF NORSEMAN IN ME. I HOPE YOU GET THE HEALTH ISSUES ALL STRAIGHTENED OUT SOONEST AND MAKE YOUR ESCAPE FROM THE HOSPITAL ASAP. ITS TOO BAD THERE ISN'T A COMPUTER AVAILABLE AS IT WOULD SURE MAKE THE TIME PASS MORE QUICKLY AND YOU WILL BE MISSED HERE ON THE FORUM, GET WELL AND HURRY BACK.

28th August 2014, 12:11 AM	#6
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations: There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars. [/size][/font]Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, [font=Georgia][size=3]exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him. The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is. He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving. These axes are cool, this post is great, and this is a hell of an observation. If you don't mind my asking, what health problem do you have that is putting you on the skids? Sorry for the weird appearance of this post, the quote feature is not a huge fan of highlighted material. Or maybe I am just confused.