Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes Michl, long goes this thread/work, in which you show us and teach us a lot, for which we may only feel much obliged.
To lend the thread a touch of "variety", allow me post the oldest specimen kept in the Portuguese Maritime Musem, which i have twice visited and from which i keep a catalogue on the Artillery thematic.
It is known by the name of "Aljubarrota trom" although, contrary to tradition, it would have never been in this memorable battle. (quoting catalogue author Colonel Nuno Valdez dos Santos; now deceased ).
The text also says that, with its half ton weight and 1,5 mts. length, this is no more than a (loading) chamber from a huge trom or gross bombard, which possible had a 4 to 5 meters length.
Pity that when i was there i didn't take a (clandestine) picture of its touch hole. Maybe when you come down to Lisbon we go there and do it .

Thanks, 'Nando,

For sharing this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria.
Yes, to see the touch hole would have been the only possibilty ... Wouldn't they let you take one single photo?

Come on, just do what I used to do in such cases, especially when I did not have a special appointment and was allowed to use flaslight: when they yelled at me 'no photography in here!', I would just go on taking pictures as quickly as possible, pretending that I didn't realize it was me they were talking to. As soon as they got near I would turn around saying, 'Oh, it's me you're talking to. My hearing's not good. Sorry, Sir, my fault.' By then, of course I mostly had what I needed.
What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria....

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up...

Oh, i'm the acid type; if they eat me, they'll get an indigestion

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

I assume you got my saying that, although this is currently called a trom (bombard), it is a reloading chamber and not an actual cannon .

[Matchlock]

Sorry, 'Nando,

I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense.
In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech+loading


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above).
German private collection.
Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg.

[fernando]

I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example .
The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth
I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery.

.

[Matchlock]

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl