Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

My point is I have no records nor have any surfaced as yet of blades with stamps or markings, which, for a blade said to have possibly been made in a joint Portuguese Sri Lankan workshop is odd. At any rate my comment is purely speculative in this regard as you will note it is only a suggestion..but your post is excellent and inspires a look into the Japanese presentation item.

Here is the weapon you speak of.. I cant see a blade mark but assume an European blade here...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

Described as; Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return; Sendai City Museum

Pictures of swords said to have been acquired in the Philippines and dated map of his travels. 1620 being key; Given the weapons at that time in the Philippines.

Dear Ibrahim,

regarding the information from Wikipedia regarding the travel of Hasekura Tsunenaga and acquisition of the weapons:

Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake.

The only scholar publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane are "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995.

Sasaki Kazuhiro has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

Here are the detail pictures of this kastane. The blade of it is the only straight one I have seen fitted as a Kastane and is a very interesting one. There are two markings on this blade, and one of them clearly is of christian origin, yet I suppose, we could conclude with some certainty that the whole blade isn't made in Europe. Curiously enough, its decoration and fullering reminds me of some chinese swords, like the one in book of Robert Hales, page 197; - yet the chinese blades of this type are (always?) slightly curved.

It is perhaps not widely known, yet Sri Lanka was nominally a vasal state of the Ming Imperium from 1411 on, and sent three more ambassys to China, 1436, 1445 and 1459.

Regarding the central pommel figure, it almost always is clearly a lion indeed. There is a fair amount of objects made of ivory from Sri Lanka, which entered the european "Kunstkammer" collections at the end of the 16 century. Lion always plays a prominent character and is stylistically very close to the pommel figure of this kastane. The one depicted was acquired before 1542.

And here a link to the post of Prasanna Weerakkody, which is quite informative indeed:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=23

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Ibrahim,

regarding the information from Wikipedia regarding the travel of Hasekura Tsunenaga and acquisition of the weapons:

Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake.

The only scholar publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane are "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995.

Sasaki Kazuhiro has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details:

Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris.

Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III.

Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries.

Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura.

Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes:

"If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection.

(...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law."

Here are the detail pictures of this kastane. The blade of it is the only straight one I have seen fitted as a Kastane and is a very interesting one. There are two markings on this blade, and one of them clearly is of christian origin, yet I suppose, we could conclude with some certainty that the whole blade isn't made in Europe. Curiously enough, its decoration and fullering reminds me of some chinese swords, like the one in book of Robert Hales, page 197; - yet the chinese blades of this type are (always?) slightly curved.

It is perhaps not widely known, yet Sri Lanka was nominally a vasal state of the Ming Imperium from 1411 on, and sent three more ambassys to China, 1436, 1445 and 1459.

Regarding the central pommel figure, it almost always is clearly a lion indeed. There is a fair amount of objects made of ivory from Sri Lanka, which entered the european "Kunstkammer" collections at the end of the 16 century. Lion always plays a prominent character and is stylistically very close to the pommel figure of this kastane. The one depicted was acquired before 1542.

And here a link to the post of Prasanna Weerakkody, which is quite informative indeed:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=23

Salaams Gustav, That is so brilliant. I cannot thank you enough for this excellent supporting detail. Not only finely written but the excellent pictures are so helpful in this discussion. Thank you Sir !

Pictures 3, 4, 5, appear to display 3. Lion. 4.Serapendiya. 5.Makara.

The marks on the blade will have us diving for the books!

The Hilt form comprises the Gargoyle style influenced by the mythical Lion, Makara or other ancient Buddhist Deities with supporting smaller dragons, miniature Makara or Nagas on the finials thereafter.

Blade form...The blade marks to one side for a moment.. I have to say my first impression on blade shape is not Sri Lankan but Chinese..which begs the question ...Were the Chinese importing Kastane or exporting the form? They were certainly involved as you point out... and we know the trade patterns of Chinese junks even to the Red Sea...Did the Kastane now in the Japanese Museum arrive in the Philipines by Chinese ship. If it was delivered to the Philipines which way did it come from? Was it brought from Sri Lanka direct or via the long way round across the Atlantic?

The Spanish East Indies were ruled as part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain and administered from Mexico City from 1565 to 1821.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Or Storta !!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Gustav,

Thank you for bringing these detailed images forth and indeed Prasanna Weerakkody's post you linked is quite informative and well founded from the start.

Dear Ibrihiim,

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In the same breath that is similar to the descriptive licence used by various agencies these days in writing about the Kastane Hilt as variously; Gargoyle, Dragon, Mythical creatures, Lions, Makara or Serapendiya ..all very interesting.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The Hilt form comprises the Gargoyle style influenced by the mythical Lion, Makara or other ancient Buddhist Deities with supporting smaller dragons, miniature Makara or Nagas on the finials thereafter.

Where are you now going with Gargoyles and Dragons?
Steer away from what you read "these days" unless the writings have direct reference and support from the old days.
With respect, I feel the these days experiences, writings and beliefs has clouded the reality of strong fighting sword types in your Oman dance sword thread...but back on point.

Hasn't the discussion confirmed that the pommel is the Lion head, not a gargoyle influenced by the Lions head, I hope you are not now jumping from Makaras to Gargoyles...happy to work through the remainded of the icons and what creature owns the Lion head along with what appears on the quillons, quillon block and knuckle bow, followed by the blade types and perhaps any meanings and if required the scabbards found on the Kastane...but to do so we need to agree on a single sword to study and discuss to keep things on point, then once satisfied, bring other swords in to the discussion to add merit to what is found or add varient notes and study these varients.

I'd like to also add that whilst both misleading and valuable information has been gained in this thread, the focus has singlely become the Kastane hilt that lead to over a year of walking down the garden path. The initial thread/question posted was about the swords of Sri lanka, perhaps we can diverse a little and consider other types too. Some very fine images have already been provided but the focus of the topic has been lost to the Kastane alone.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Dear Gustav,

Thank you for bringing these detailed images forth and indeed Prasanna Weerakkody's post you linked is quite informative and well founded from the start.

Dear Ibrihiim,


Where are you now going with Gargoyles and Dragons?
Steer away from what you read "these days" unless the writings have direct reference and support from the old days.
With respect, I feel the these days experiences, writings and beliefs has clouded the reality of strong fighting sword types in your Oman dance sword thread...but back on point.

Hasn't the discussion confirmed that the pommel is the Lion head, not a gargoyle influenced by the Lions head, I hope you are not now jumping from Makaras to Gargoyles...happy to work through the remainded of the icons and what creature owns the Lion head along with what appears on the quillons, quillon block and knuckle bow, followed by the blade types and perhaps any meanings and if required the scabbards found on the Kastane...but to do so we need to agree on a single sword to study and discuss to keep things on point, then once satisfied, bring other swords in to the discussion to add merit to what is found or add varient notes and study these varients.

I'd like to also add that whilst both misleading and valuable information has been gained in this thread, the focus has singlely become the Kastane hilt that lead to over a year of walking down the garden path. The initial thread/question posted was about the swords of Sri lanka, perhaps we can diverse a little and consider other types too. Some very fine images have already been provided but the focus of the topic has been lost to the Kastane alone.

Gavin

Salaams ...SwordsAntiqueWeapons Yes, you are advised to stick to the point as mixing the two is not going to assist this case and certainly of no value in the other.

I don't want to list the heap of notes from auctioneers museums and Kastane descriptions offering the variety of explanations on the style... it runs to a lot... when in fact my simple array covers most of them as Gargoyles
Mythical creature Makara, Lion, Naga, Seren...etc etc ... which is a reasonable way to describe this phenomena since at the end of the day it is an artisans impression thus no two are identical...and indeed there were many artisans.

This thread is about the Kastane. If you wish to diversify please carry on~ the ink is free... but I would consider if I were you ... in the case of another sword, opening a new thread... unless it be related to the Kastane.

There are great new avenues opening not least the new information hitherto not recorded on library except in passing... like the fine details just recieved on the Japanese Museum item and the anecdotal evidence from 1807 etc etc making this thread far from a stroll down the same path alluded to by you.. and marked by the high readership of now more than 13,000 hits...so somebody is reading the thread, no?

All input is very much appreciated and it should be remembered that this is a joint forum effort and that there is a lot more to do.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gustav]

It's, how should I say... "gargoyling" also at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastane

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gustav

It's, how should I say... "gargoyling" also at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastane

Salaams Gustav... For what its worth I have never seen two descriptions the same... and for that matter no two Kastane the same ...Here are a few from important museums collectors and specialists but there are scores more all placing into the rich descriptive mixture a host of different images. I think the description at your reference is fairly near the artistic licence required to balance the equation. It ought to be as it took me a while to write !

The Victoria and Albert Museum.
Vand A;The kastane is the national sword of Sri Lanka. It typically has a short curved single-edged blade, double-edged at the point. The hilt comprises a knuckle-guard and down-turned quillons, each terminating in a dragon's head. The swords were intended to serve as badges of rank; the quality of ornamentation depending on the status of the wearer.The establishment of European trading contacts with South Asia by the late 16th and early 17th century led to these swords becoming fashionable dress accessories among European gentlemen.

St Petersberg 1850…Mounted in heavily cast and chased silver-gilt, the hilt in traditional Sinhalese style elaborately decorated with guilloche, fluting and panels of engraved foliage and florets, with the pommel and quillon formed as the stylised heads of lions and the ogee-shaped knucklebow emerging at the quillon from the mouth of a beast and terminating at the pommel in the stylised head of a dragon, the eyes of all the beasts on the hilt formed of cabochon-cut garnets or rubies.

Chrispties ~A SINHALESE SWORD (KASTANE) SRI LANKA, 18TH CENTURY
With curved single-edged inscribed blade with single fuller along the back-edge on each side, the decoration with foliated scrolls, the wood and bronze hilt with applied silver and brass panels, the guard of characteristic form with openwork head of a mythical beast, the grip carved with scrollwork and with dragon's head pommel.

Robert Elgood. From The earliest kastane of this form that can be accurately dated was taken to Japan in 1630 where it still exists. The form scarcely changes over the next two hundred years. The pommel is invariably decorated with the snub-nosed Sinhalese lion while the lion-like serapendiya is found on the quillon and guard ends. Most kastane blades were made locally but some utilise cut down European sword blades. Kastane were symbols of rank and later examples take the same form but are covered in sheet silver and inset with precious stones whilst the blades become ornamental.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Ibrihiim,

Please refer to the first post, the thread starter is actually wanting to know about swords from the country, not just the kastane in its solitude...but I guess your blinkers are on again...like the lack of direct answers to my questions posed to you.

The duality of your comments vs actions, ie, of your long winded threads about Makara pommels leading to the depths of god knows where to now wanting to reduce data placed in the pages by simply addressing the important mythical creatures to Gargoyles and again completely overlooking the importance of the Sri Lankan Lion motifs surprises me greatly.

I am not aware of why you would want to draw from every auctioneer and sales point about how they describe the kastane...I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

Ibrihiim, please, and I am not detracting from the importance of this discussion forum and the members efforts, but please understand 13000+ people have not read this thread. The counter to the sidebar is a hits counter...only the forum owners would be able to drill down the urchin statistics and advise on dwell time by readers etc...this is how the internet works...12000 of the hits may have only been a 2 minute search by readers who found the thread through key words searches...no doubt now misinformed about important icons.

It is at this point that I opt out of this discussion and perhaps I will come back n another 12 months. Best of luck with Gargoyles and Dragons.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Dear Ibrihiim,

Please refer to the first post, the thread starter is actually wanting to know about swords from the country, not just the kastane in its solitude...but I guess your blinkers are on again...like the lack of direct answers to my questions posed to you.

The duality of your comments vs actions, ie, of your long winded threads about Makara pommels leading to the depths of god knows where to now wanting to reduce data placed in the pages by simply addressing the important mythical creatures to Gargoyles and again completely overlooking the importance of the Sri Lankan Lion motifs surprises me greatly.

I am not aware of why you would want to draw from every auctioneer and sales point about how they describe the kastane...I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

Ibrihiim, please, and I am not detracting from the importance of this discussion forum and the members efforts, but please understand 13000+ people have not read this thread. The counter to the sidebar is a hits counter...only the forum owners would be able to drill down the urchin statistics and advise on dwell time by readers etc...this is how the internet works...12000 of the hits may have only been a 2 minute search by readers who found the thread through key words searches...no doubt now misinformed about important icons.

It is at this point that I opt out of this discussion and perhaps I will come back n another 12 months. Best of luck with Gargoyles and Dragons.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons. It is noted that you have opted out of this thread but sadly for the wrong reasons since I have broadened the descriptive wording in describing the Kastane Hilt to encompass the rich mythical style inherited from Buddhism and in blending the variety of Deities including Makara, Lions, Kirtimukha Serapendiya, Nagas, crocodile/human monsters and other dragon and gargoyle like effigies ...and according to the artistic idiosyncrasies of the day plus realizing that no two artists may interpret a monster like form in exactly the same way. Then there is the added function of form change where depending from which viewpoint it may be observed the mythical beast may be in one of 5 different forms...So understandably there is some discussion.

Not participating, whilst it is your free choice, is regrettable but hopefully you will rejoin at some stage as your input has been much appreciated...and as I have noted ... If you want to branch out and include any weapon related to ... or in the broader context of #1 any weapons in the Sri Lankan armoury...the ink is free... here or another thread its entirely up to you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

......the focus has singlely become the Kastane hilt that lead to over a year of walking down the garden path. The initial thread/question posted was about the swords of Sri lanka, perhaps we can diverse a little and consider other types too. Some very fine images have already been provided but the focus of the topic has been lost to the Kastane alone.

Gavin

Thanks, Gavin!

I am interested in belt swords, the Urumi of South India.
The classic Tamil/Karnataka version is of normal length, or perhaps slightly oversized, but looks like a normal Tulwar. They were presented in the Elgood's book as well as in the Tulwar's book describing Mysore palace.

Having gone to Wiki ( pardon me :-(((), I learned that there allegedly was a Singhalese version of it, called Ethunu Kaduwa, that was apparently multibladed and extraordinarily long ( picture of uncertain veracity attached).

Does anyone have any reliable information re. those swords?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks, Gavin!

I am interested in belt swords, the Urumi of South India.
The classic Tamil/Karnataka version is of normal length, or perhaps slightly oversized, but looks like a normal Tulwar. They were presented in the Elgood's book as well as in the Tulwar's book describing Mysore palace.

Having gone to Wiki ( pardon me :-(((), I learned that there allegedly was a Singhalese version of it, called Ethunu Kaduwa, that was apparently multibladed and extraordinarily long ( picture of uncertain veracity attached).

Does anyone have any reliable information re. those swords?

Salaams Ariel, Thank you for adding this amazing weapon. According to http://www.historyrundown.com/tag/martial-arts/

Quote"1.Urumi
The Urumi is probably one of the most dangerous melee weapons in the entire history of weapons, not only for enemies, but also for the wielder himself. It originated in southern states of India, being known as far back as the Mauryan Empire.

Pair of multi-bladed urumi(ethunu kaduwa)
It is a very flexible longsword, usually made from steel or brass, 48–66 inches(122-168 cm) long, often treated as a metal whip. Urumi is often composed of multiple blades, attached to a single handle, in some variants used mainly in Sri Lanka the number of blades could be more than 30.

In the combat, warriors usually handle the urumi as a whip, swinging and spinning it around. This makes it especially efficient against multitude of enemies. While not being used, it is often worn as a belt, coiled around warrior’s waist.

In the medieval India, only the most well-trained Rajput warriors were allowed to practice with this whip-like sword, requiring perfect coordination, concentration and agility. Although not capable of slicing through armor, wounds inflicted from the swinging urumi could be often fatal." Unquote.

Note; From the same source; Mauryan Empire. An historical power in ancient India, ruled by the Mauryan dynasty from about 322 to 185 BCE.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Ariel, The Ethuna kadu (Rolled up Sword) is not a mainstream weapon and is only still practiced by very few Angam martial artists in Sri Lanka. old examples of weapons seem virtually non-existent though some Angam schools still train with them. The person in the picture is Angam master Ajantha Mahantharachchi a friend of mine and among the few who are quite skilled at the use of the weapon in Sri Lanka. the movements seem more rotational than shown in the posted video clip and is effective in clearing a path 5-6 m. wide.

Vandoo- The link to Lions in Sinhala (Sinha=Lion - Sinhala literally means Lion people) goes back at least to two and a half millennia where the story links the ancestry of the Sinhala race to a Lion. it is not a recent acquisition. If you may note the Sri Lankan National flag is of a Lion carrying a Sword in hand. (not a Kasthana though )

Gustav, Thanks for the Images of the Hasekura Kasthane, It anyway seem quite a mixed up piece as even the guards and the ivory hilt seem to have different origins. to my knowledge the hilt seem to be of a later date stylistically and of a rather more crude craftsmanship. The blade obviously does not comply with Sinhala traditional design of Kasthana.