Scottish Ribbon Hilt Sword. Maker info

Norman McCormick · 2nd January 2014, 05:06 PM

Hi Jim,
First of all let me wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year and I hope that a few drams of your favourite whisky, Drambuie if my memory serves, eased the transition from 2013 to 2014.

With regards to your last post the term you were looking for is Not Proven rather than Unproven. It is a peculiarity of Scots Law that we have three verdicts in criminal cases rather than the normal two, although other countries do have more than two verdicts possible Italy being one. The verdict Not Proven means 'we think you did it but cannot prove it' so in cases of historical suppositions it may be particularly apt. The sword in question is a nice example and would look extremely good above my mantlepiece.

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 2nd January 2014, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... The sword in question is a nice example and would look extremely good above my mantlepiece.

Can you 'prove' that, Norman ?

Norman McCormick · 2nd January 2014, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you 'prove' that, Norman ?

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2014, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
First of all let me wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year and I hope that a few drams of your favourite whisky, Drambuie if my memory serves, eased the transition from 2013 to 2014.

With regards to your last post the term you were looking for is Not Proven rather than Unproven. It is a peculiarity of Scots Law that we have three verdicts in criminal cases rather than the normal two, although other countries do have more than two verdicts possible Italy being one. The verdict Not Proven means 'we think you did it but cannot prove it' so in cases of historical suppositions it may be particularly apt. The sword in question is a nice example and would look extremely good above my mantlepiece.

My Regards,
Norman.

Aye Norman!!! and to you and the family, a most happy and wonderful new year.....your memory serves well..it is Drambuie indeed!
Thank you so much for that correction on that term which I was using in analogous context, and had recalled incorrectly. I am always grateful for these kinds of details, and even better from a true kinsman.

I agree, this is truly a beautiful example of these magnificent swords, and it is always wonderful to see these great threads come back.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 3rd January 2014, 01:17 AM

Wow! I had forgotten about this beautiful ribbon-hilt! Now that would be the jewel in anyone's collection! I just got done reading Peterson's old tome on weapons in Pre-Colonial America, so it is certainly possible that it could have been crafted here, or at least come over the pond to here! Due to its early dating and style, I would assume it came from the homeland until proven otherwise, though.

A belated Happy New Year to you gents, especially you, Jim! Indeed, William Thack aka Blackbeard should have never sassed a Highlander!!

boberl · 3rd October 2015, 12:54 AM

I have just joined this forum because I saw Templarnight's ribbon hilt last weekend. I have its twin brother or at least a kissin' cousin.
The only significant difference I can see, aside from the decorative piercing is that while his blade has the name Peter Knaupf, mine has the unbiquitous Andria Ferara, along with armourer's marks of an arc with three stars at each end on both sides of the blade.
The dimensions are nearly identical. It suggests that these swords, at the least, came out of the same shop.
I believe they are late in the ribbon hilt series based on the ring that joins the arms of the guards under the pommel. I have an earlier ribbon hilt in which the joining piece is simply a thin piece of iron.
The welding of the plates inside is very well done and all but invisible on the outside.
Most of my swords are on a thread on SFI started by Cathey Brimage, who also launched one here. Cathey, Eljay Erickson and I have been posting swords there are the last few months.
I saw some beautiful pieces on the thread on this forum, which Cathey was also involved in. Hope we can all share the goodies.

boberl · 9th July 2018, 07:12 PM

Sorry not to have posted this warning sooner.

After studying my sword closely and comparing it with known authentic ribbon hilts I concluded that it was a beautifully made reproduction.

I returned it to the dealer who did not dispute my conclusions. I learned very recently that it was sold on to another collector to whom I have explained my reasoning.

First, it is simply more than coincidental to find two swords, purportedly made in the 17th Century, with the names of different makers -- one of whom is unknown -- that are identical in every respect.

Second, it is also more than coincidental that neither sword shows any marks of use, no dings or dents, which a real ribbon hilt has in abundance.

Handling the one sword in comparison with other, authentic, swords offers the "feeling" that it just isn't right.

I learned later that my sword came through an English dealer who has a reputation for distributing iffy pieces.

In my case at least its purchase was a matter of enthusiasm overcoming good sense because my firm belief now is that both swords were not made in the 1600s but in the late 1900s or early 2000s.

colin henshaw · 11th July 2018, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boberl

Sorry not to have posted this warning sooner.

After studying my sword closely and comparing it with known authentic ribbon hilts I concluded that it was a beautifully made reproduction.

I returned it to the dealer who did not dispute my conclusions. I learned very recently that it was sold on to another collector to whom I have explained my reasoning.

First, it is simply more than coincidental to find two swords, purportedly made in the 17th Century, with the names of different makers -- one of whom is unknown -- that are identical in every respect.

Second, it is also more than coincidental that neither sword shows any marks of use, no dings or dents, which a real ribbon hilt has in abundance.

Handling the one sword in comparison with other, authentic, swords offers the "feeling" that it just isn't right.

I learned later that my sword came through an English dealer who has a reputation for distributing iffy pieces.

In my case at least its purchase was a matter of enthusiasm overcoming good sense because my firm belief now is that both swords were not made in the 1600s but in the late 1900s or early 2000s.

Interesting. Not my area, but I've always admired Scottish broadswords and backswords. The two swords illustrated in this thread seem in an unusually good state of preservation compared to examples I have seen in museums. Looking forward to reading what other forumites with more knowledge have to say...

Roland_M · 11th July 2018, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boberl

Second, it is also more than coincidental that neither sword shows any marks of use, no dings or dents, which a real ribbon hilt has in abundance.

Yes, the absence of any marks of fighting on a battlefield-sword, which is no parade-sword or so, is always a warning sign.

These blades were made for combat, not as a wallhanger and no one in the past would have bought such a blade for collecting, this is like buying a Ford Escort as a collectors piece nowadays.

All of my authentic swords have more or less prominent traces of combat.

But I also have to say, the the artificial aging job on the two blades is awesome. The only thing that is strange is the total absence of black pitting.

Roland

Lee · 11th July 2018, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boberl

...I concluded that it was a beautifully made reproduction.

I have two 'Scottish' swords that I suspect are from the same forger as the one you presented; I believe he is called the 'Birmingham maker.' They fooled more than one expert and the collector who ultimately called them out suggested I just put them in an auction to recover my money, but I have chosen instead to use them as decorators on my wall, along with some other 'mistakes' I have made along the way as reminders.

Scottish swords are an even more treacherous minefield than medieval swords.

It takes courage to admit that one's self has been fooled, even if transiently, and I commend you.

midelburgo · 12th July 2018, 12:03 PM

Not just Scottish swords, also schiavonas, katzbalgers, dusaks, ritterschwerts from 1600 and walloon swords. This workshop touched everything. There was a post about them in swordforum. In 2009 maybe. I have tried with the search engine to no avail.

Very nice replicas, that handled also beautifully.

Taken one by one they did not raise suspicions, but as a group they did. A similar level of damage. Similar thread at the grips and turknots, very clear marks, sometimes repeated, same file marks. I got a Ritterschwert in 2005 that was sold to me as a Victorian replica. But I think the workshop was still working in the 2000s, maybe in East Europe. There were many connections to a Birmingham dealer, at a time he was selling a couple of these swords a month. And the level of damage was being increased. I was collecting the pictures and there was something sniffy there. If they are still active and have corrected their mistakes, you need short of metallographic techniques to find out.

3rd October 2015, 12:54 AM	#6
boberl Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 2	Twin brothers, or at least Kissin' Cousins I have just joined this forum because I saw Templarnight's ribbon hilt last weekend. I have its twin brother or at least a kissin' cousin. The only significant difference I can see, aside from the decorative piercing is that while his blade has the name Peter Knaupf, mine has the unbiquitous Andria Ferara, along with armourer's marks of an arc with three stars at each end on both sides of the blade. The dimensions are nearly identical. It suggests that these swords, at the least, came out of the same shop. I believe they are late in the ribbon hilt series based on the ring that joins the arms of the guards under the pommel. I have an earlier ribbon hilt in which the joining piece is simply a thin piece of iron. The welding of the plates inside is very well done and all but invisible on the outside. Most of my swords are on a thread on SFI started by Cathey Brimage, who also launched one here. Cathey, Eljay Erickson and I have been posting swords there are the last few months. I saw some beautiful pieces on the thread on this forum, which Cathey was also involved in. Hope we can all share the goodies. Attached Images

9th July 2018, 07:12 PM	#7
boberl Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 2	Fake Sorry not to have posted this warning sooner. After studying my sword closely and comparing it with known authentic ribbon hilts I concluded that it was a beautifully made reproduction. I returned it to the dealer who did not dispute my conclusions. I learned very recently that it was sold on to another collector to whom I have explained my reasoning. First, it is simply more than coincidental to find two swords, purportedly made in the 17th Century, with the names of different makers -- one of whom is unknown -- that are identical in every respect. Second, it is also more than coincidental that neither sword shows any marks of use, no dings or dents, which a real ribbon hilt has in abundance. Handling the one sword in comparison with other, authentic, swords offers the "feeling" that it just isn't right. I learned later that my sword came through an English dealer who has a reputation for distributing iffy pieces. In my case at least its purchase was a matter of enthusiasm overcoming good sense because my firm belief now is that both swords were not made in the 1600s but in the late 1900s or early 2000s.

2nd January 2014, 05:06 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,632	Hi Jim, First of all let me wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year and I hope that a few drams of your favourite whisky, Drambuie if my memory serves, eased the transition from 2013 to 2014. With regards to your last post the term you were looking for is Not Proven rather than Unproven. It is a peculiarity of Scots Law that we have three verdicts in criminal cases rather than the normal two, although other countries do have more than two verdicts possible Italy being one. The verdict Not Proven means 'we think you did it but cannot prove it' so in cases of historical suppositions it may be particularly apt. The sword in question is a nice example and would look extremely good above my mantlepiece. My Regards, Norman.

3rd January 2014, 01:17 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Wow! I had forgotten about this beautiful ribbon-hilt! Now that would be the jewel in anyone's collection! I just got done reading Peterson's old tome on weapons in Pre-Colonial America, so it is certainly possible that it could have been crafted here, or at least come over the pond to here! Due to its early dating and style, I would assume it came from the homeland until proven otherwise, though. A belated Happy New Year to you gents, especially you, Jim! Indeed, William Thack aka Blackbeard should have never sassed a Highlander!!

12th July 2018, 12:03 PM	#11
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Not just Scottish swords, also schiavonas, katzbalgers, dusaks, ritterschwerts from 1600 and walloon swords. This workshop touched everything. There was a post about them in swordforum. In 2009 maybe. I have tried with the search engine to no avail. Very nice replicas, that handled also beautifully. Taken one by one they did not raise suspicions, but as a group they did. A similar level of damage. Similar thread at the grips and turknots, very clear marks, sometimes repeated, same file marks. I got a Ritterschwert in 2005 that was sold to me as a Victorian replica. But I think the workshop was still working in the 2000s, maybe in East Europe. There were many connections to a Birmingham dealer, at a time he was selling a couple of these swords a month. And the level of damage was being increased. I was collecting the pictures and there was something sniffy there. If they are still active and have corrected their mistakes, you need short of metallographic techniques to find out.