Dating a matchlock & a wheellock

[Matchlock]

A Thuringian/Suhl matchlock, ca. 1640, was sold at a surreal price Christie's London, November 9, 2000 (attached), while a fine Suhl matchlock wall piece, dated 1597, illustrated together with the aforementioned, went for almost nothing.
The shape of the bellied buttstock with incised lines is very similar to that on your musket.


m

[Trond]

Many thanks for valuable help. The short one is of course a carbine. Both these guns are marked Suhl, but are close to identical to the ones I believe were used in the Danish/Norwegian army (mainly against the Swedes).

The major part of my gun collection is of Danish/Norwegian long-guns, pistol & swords from the 1700 and 1800's. Here are a couple of pictures of long-guns. There are rubber cast magnets holding them:





If interested, you'll find more about Danish/Norwegian arms at Danish/Norwegian Military Arms

Trond

[Matchlock]

The carbine is in my opinion way too ususual not to have been cut down from a musket. Does it feature a riding rod (Reitstangl) and a movable saddle ring to the left side?
Even then the stock of the carbine and its forward sections must have been considerably cut down in size, and still they do not match what we expext to see: an average paddle-shaped carbine butt.

I woud be grateful for receiving good images showing the overall length of the matcklock musket which really should measure 156 cm all over, and have a weight of not less than 7-8 kgs. I would also need to see the barrel and lock marks of both guns.


Best,
m

[Trond]

These pictures are hopefully sufficient:





Trond

[Matchlock]

Like I expected, the bandelier rod and ring are missing, the iron finial seems to be missing from the tip of the ramrod, and this carbine with the rounded paddle-shaped buttstock is much later than I thought, ca. 1670-90, so there is no longer any connection with the Thirty Years War. If I remember it correctly, Sweden even had the last wheellock carbine model out in as late as 1704. The stock might be of fruitwood or walnut, Sweden preferred birch.


As this is my main expertise, it would be great if I could see the carbine SVL marks, as well as those on the barrel and lock of the matchlock musket, and better photos of the latter.

It is the form and style of the makers marks that discern correct dating.

I can make out the backsight but are the foresight on the musket barrel and the forward nasal iron band present? Does the ramrod have its threaded iron finial (Setzerkopf)?
The overall length should be 146 or 152 cm.


The scans are from Heinrich Müller: Das Heerwesen in Brandenburg und Preußen von 1640 bis 1806 - DIE BEWAFFNUNG. Brandenburgisches Verlagshaus, 1991.



m