French 1882 Sabre

[neekee]

Hi all ~

I know this is by no means a rare sword, but I'm really curious to know more about it, and I was wondering if you experts would have anything to say about that one.

There are 3 crosses carved on the grip. Do you think it means what I think it means ? :x

The hand engravings read "Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault / Février 1904, Off-er d'Inf-rie M-le 1882"

The 3 poinçons are, I think, G G and C

The blade is sharpened just on one side. You can see it experienced intensive sharpening on more than one occasion, I'd say.

I'm kind of curious about metals and forging methods in general, so I'll ask ...

Do you know what metal is the whole pommel/guard/quillon made of ? Doesn't rust at all.

Do you know what the blade is made of ? It looks chromed, which surprises me for a military weapon of that time which apparently was used in combat.

Any tips on taking care of it ?

Thanks in advance. Hope you enjoy the pics.

[fernando]

Bonjour neekee
I am the contrary to an expert but ...

The hilt is made of white brass, or German silver or, as i think you call it, metal argentee, same as used in cutlery.
The steel blade has a chromed finish because, at this stage (1882-1904), swords were no longer for combat, but for cerimonial uniforms. If it has been frequently sharpened, as you notice, must have been for the amusement of a later owner that not for going into battle.
The inspector ponçons you may identify them if you browse the Net for the Châtelerault site or other written publications .
I guess the three crosses are just ... three crosses; a mark like any other mark

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by neekee

Hi all ~

I know this is by no means a rare sword, but I'm really curious to know more about it, and I was wondering if you experts would have anything to say about that one.

There are 3 crosses carved on the grip. Do you think it means what I think it means ? :x

The hand engravings read "Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault / Février 1904, Off-er d'Inf-rie M-le 1882"

The 3 poinçons are, I think, G G and C

The blade is sharpened just on one side. You can see it experienced intensive sharpening on more than one occasion, I'd say.

I'm kind of curious about metals and forging methods in general, so I'll ask ...

Do you know what metal is the whole pommel/guard/quillon made of ? Doesn't rust at all.

Do you know what the blade is made of ? It looks chromed, which surprises me for a military weapon of that time which apparently was used in combat.

Any tips on taking care of it ?

Thanks in advance. Hope you enjoy the pics.

Salaams neekee ~ Well I'm no expert but I was intrigued by the 3 crosses. They would seem to me to be indicating crossed swords..thus perhaps duels? It can be seen that French Duels took place well into the 1900s and even up to the late 60s;

The last duel in France took place in 1967 when Gaston Defferre insulted René Ribière (fr) at the French parliament and was subsequently challenged to a duel fought with swords. René Ribière lost the duel, having been wounded twice. He escaped relatively uninjured, however.

(I speak here only of the popularity in France as in other countries it died out a lot earlier and generally about the WW1 period. I also restrict my small note to sword fencing duels as there were others... Not only pistols... Two chaps went against each other by tossing billiard balls!)

The more fancy dueling swords, whilst popular, were not the only swords to be used... Military weapon like yours were also popular; obviously amongst the military elite.

See this site for a comprehensive history and reason detre upon dueling. https://ohiostatepress.org/Books/Com...g%20Men/06.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All~ Note to Library. It appears that in the late 19th Century a comprehensive fighting system(FOR DUELING) was rebuilt around the European Sabre. Books on the subject are reasonably findable, for example, The Art of the Dueling Sabre by Moniteur Christopher Holzman or simply by typing into web search Art of the Dueling Sabre. I am just looking at Forum library.. actually I was hoping to find some reference to marking swords after duels with a cross to signify a victory...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

.. actually I was hoping to find some reference to marking swords after duels with a cross to signify a victory...

Like the notches they used to cut in their gunstocks in the old West ?
Do you really beleive the crosses in this sword grip mean duel knock downs, Ibrahiim ?

[neekee]

Thanks Fernando and Iibrahim for the interesting comments.

In France there is a popular belief that a cross on a weapon means "1 kill". Of course there is no way to know when or for what reason such a cross would be made. ^^

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by neekee

Thanks Fernando and Iibrahim for the interesting comments.

In France there is a popular belief that a cross on a weapon means "1 kill". Of course there is no way to know when or for what reason such a cross would be made. ^^

Hi Neekee,
I'm most curious about this tally marking for 'kills' as you note is believed to be customary in France. Can you note where this information might be found?

The history of dueling is of course, colorful and intriguing, and I have often had occasion to look into it in varying degree. While there have always been rather glorifying or embellished accounts of these events, as far as I have ever known, no physical tallying of 'kills' or duels fought have ever been applied to weapons. There is no denying that 'duels' of sorts did exist in France, much as in Germany and other parts of Europe, these were most often rather 'ceremonial' despite the more rare occasions where genuine combat duels did result in loss of life or injury . However swords such as these later forms, as Fernando has noted , were not intended for combat, nor of course dueling.

This returns the question to, what would these 'x's represent? I don't believe these are the result of any set or standard kind of marks despite the fact that triple Xs can be associated with many possible symbolisms. Why they are there would be anybody's guess, particularly in this odd location in the grip.

For library refs and further reading, these are the resources I checked:
"The Secret History of the Sword" J.Cristoph Amberger, 1999
I subscribed to his Hammerterz Verlag for some years in 1990s. He has personally fought seven of the 'mensur duels in Germany (1985-87)

"Sword & Masque", J.Palff-Alpar, 1967

"Duelling:Cult of Honor in Fin de Siecle Germany" Kevin McAleer, 1994, p.195
Chapters on dueling in France.

"By the Sword", 2002, Richard Cohen, p.317
extensive detail on fencing, dueling and sword history

The triple poincons on the blade would be for the director, controller and reviser at Chatellerault.

As Ibrahiim has noted, some military swords were indeed used in these 'duels, however there were apparently threaded apertures in the blade where a plate was secured to prevent severe injury. Serious duels were apparently fought with the epee, with the rare occasion as noted of use of a sabre.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Like the notches they used to cut in their gunstocks in the old West ?
Do you really beleive the crosses in this sword grip mean duel knock downs, Ibrahiim ?

Salaams fernando... No actually I do not... but for some reason there are 3 crosses on this hilt and it struck me as a possibility, thus, I have delved into the world of dueling by sword... and found nothing related. Ah well it was worth the excursion y' know? Perhaps it was the number of times the owner fell off his horse?

Jim ~ I agree, yes it became a dwindling concept according to my reference previously which stated that though efforts to rule against Dueling had failed all the way up to about 1921 they still occurred in France .. but only a handful after WW1.. Which is also cited as the reason for the decline in Duels...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[neekee]

Sorry Jim, but what I was referring to about the crosses on a weapon was merely "popular belief". Something kids hear about in books and comics. Nothing seriously historical at all, eventhough in that array "popular rumours" are sometimes good to take into account.

I don't seriously believe the crosses on the sword mean "kills", btw. I would believe it mayyybe a little more if the sword was mid 19th century, with the 1870 war and all that, or even more if it was Napoleon era, but it was made in 1904. I don't see this weapon being wielded in Verdun's trenches ...

Still intriguing ...

[fernando]

Naturaly all of us would love to have a weapon (or two) with an history behind ... one with a dueling background would be an added value.
I know a collector who, during his gathering struggle, has gone into extreme situations, like swapping hundreds (hundreds) of regular muskets for a most wanted rare example; and having bought an entire collection of gun locks for the acquiring of a single one. I am not kidding; a member of this forum knows to whom such collection was purchased.
A 'modern' chromed sword having a three kill mark in its grip would easily stand in front of the line; and the owner having had his name in the hall of fame .
The three crosses could have been made for whatever reason; from being the user's mark to distinguish it from others at the depot to being a later owner (youngster ?) wishing to give it the "kill look".

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Ibrahiim has noted, some military swords were indeed used in these 'duels, however there were apparently threaded apertures in the blade where a plate was secured to prevent severe injury.

Some relation with the XVIII century fencing foil discipline, with their points protected with a blossom ... thus the name fleuret . Wilder practitioners could always take the knob off and engage into more serious duels.
It looks like women from the period also went into such exercizes

.

[Richard G]

Three points:-

Isn't this sword in its scabbard the wrong way round? Does it enter the scabbard both ways? I know nothing of French swords, but this seems unusual.

I have always understood that in 1914 British cavalry had their swords sharpened before embarking for France and officers were instructed to sharpen theirs. It is sometimes quoted, as evidence of the stupidity of the military, that in 1939 officers were again ordered to "sharpen their swords".

I would not discount use of the sword in colonial wars or peacekeeping operations prior to WW2 if you really want the macabre explanation of the "crosses".

Regards
Richard

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Three points:-

Isn't this sword in its scabbard the wrong way round? Does it enter the scabbard both ways? I know nothing of French swords, but this seems unusual...

Well observed ... and possible, judging by the shape of the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by neekee

Sorry Jim, but what I was referring to about the crosses on a weapon was merely "popular belief". Something kids hear about in books and comics. Nothing seriously historical at all, eventhough in that array "popular rumours" are sometimes good to take into account.

I don't seriously believe the crosses on the sword mean "kills", btw. I would believe it mayyybe a little more if the sword was mid 19th century, with the 1870 war and all that, or even more if it was Napoleon era, but it was made in 1904. I don't see this weapon being wielded in Verdun's trenches ...

Still intriguing ...

Thank you Neekee, the reason I asked was that the idea was remarkably intriguing, and as posed by Ibrahiim did seem somewhat plausible. Actually in many instances research can reveal some not only surprising, but sometimes incredible facts.
I have studied these concepts before, occasionally on ethnographic weapon forms, but most interesting on the gunfighters of the 'wild west' as mentioned by Nando. What I found was that there were absolutely no records of any of the well known 'shootists' who ever notched or in any way tallied their opponents or victims. In actuality, it was the writers and sensationalists in embellished tales with overblown hubris who created these myths . In most cases it cannot even be noted with any certainty exactly how many 'kills' or contests these individuals were ever involved in.

Returning to the dueling phenomenon, I have been looking further into this and can see how such popular lore might have developed, much in the way of our gunfighter myths.

As I earlier mentioned, in France Army issue swords being fixed with screw threads to accept a small plate near the tip is noted as having begun during the Napoleonic era when duels took place both with or without these 'gadgets'. But by the Third Republic its use had become "standard".
("Duelling: Cult of Honor in Fin de Siecle Germany", Kevin McAleer, 994, p.194).
The author notes further that by the reign of Napoleon III, hardly a regiment in the garrison of Paris was without its professed duelist, officer or private.
By the 1880s, the military control of dueling gave way to increasing civilian duels. Apparantly the use of swords was far less 'mortal' and much of the circumstance was theatrical in sense and focused on style and popular fascination. Duels were typically covered by newspaper columnists etc. and often critiqued like sporting events. (discussed op.cit, p. 195, McAleer)

The allure of this much romanticized (despite often gruesome) pursuit has remained in place even into modern times, in Germany in universities etc.and I had the pleasure of fascinating communications with Chris Amberger as previously mentioned, who engaged in seven of these 'mensur' duels. A passionate swordsman as well as historian, it seems even he was unclear why he would be drawn into such a threatening circumstance, but when it comes to passions, how does one explain?

I think it is best summed up in one of my favorite movies, "The Duellists" (Keith Carradine, Harvey Keitel). It boldly states on the marquis, "Fencing is a science, love is a passion...dueling is an obsession. The movie is based on a true story by Joseph Conrad about two French officers in Napoleonic times who fought many duels against each other over a long period of time.

While the idea of the crosses on the grip at the outset, sounded of course fanciful and lent toward those popular folklores, I think this additional perspective might add more to the plausibility of the suggestion Ibrahiim posed, and admittedly a bit wistfully wished to be true.

It is important to note as well, the numeric sequence of three seems a bit too coincidental to be considered as a 'tally' due to the use of this number in various applications in markings and symbols in either religious or talismanic imbuements. Also, the 'crosses' are actually 'x's rather than the Latin, potent or other religious forms (acknowledging of course the exception of St. Andrews, seldom used in such contexts described). The use of triple crosses is known to be significant as representing atonement and often seen in numeric three are three holes at blade tip on heading swords. These are simply notes considered in examining this conundrum.

[neekee]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Three points:-

Isn't this sword in its scabbard the wrong way round? Does it enter the scabbard both ways? I know nothing of French swords, but this seems unusual.

I have always understood that in 1914 British cavalry had their swords sharpened before embarking for France and officers were instructed to sharpen theirs. It is sometimes quoted, as evidence of the stupidity of the military, that in 1939 officers were again ordered to "sharpen their swords".

I would not discount use of the sword in colonial wars or peacekeeping operations prior to WW2 if you really want the macabre explanation of the "crosses".

Regards
Richard

Thank you for your post Richard. I just tried and the sword can indeed enter the scabbard both ways, without any forcing. I never thought about it to be honest ...

Interesting fact about the sharpening instructions. I will check on the other sabres we got from my great grand father who fought in both wars. They are kept at another relative's place.



Fascinating post Jim. I particularly liked the numeric sequence symbolic part. I am in the process of choosing a design to engrave on the pommel of a medieval sword replica I own and it got me thinking. Oh, the knowledge in this world ~

About the fascination Western Europe once had with dueling, and just to add a bit of my own perspective, it is indeed pretty hard to understand by modern's standards. I am no expert, but think it can be traced back to Knightly ideals, which evolved into this high conception of Honour with a capital H and prevailed as a true gentleman's highest value for centuries in European culture, not dying completely until the 20th century. A man is nothing without honour is something that comes back often in epic tales and stories from these centuries, and while today it may seem silly that a wealthy, educated man in his prime would prefer death in a duel from dishonour, I think it gives great highlight on the mentality of those times, how much they meant what they said (and thus possibly not only on that aspect) and how much our civilization has changed. The symbol of the gentleman warrior, living by a code and protecting his honour with his sword, is also one of the aspects that links European and Japanese cultures, in my opinion.

Cheers ~

[Raymond]

Hi Neekee, I do not speak/write French but did have the pleasure of serving in that lovely country 1964-66.

I developed an interest in French weaponry.

Here is my unexpert opinion: Mfr desAarmes Chaterault means Chaterault Arms Manufacture (a French Government arsenal.

Fev 1904 indicates the month and year of manufacture.

Mdle 1889 is, of course, Model 1889 (adoption year).

My old eyes won't allow me to see much more of the markings (especially the spelling!).

Probably( without googling) the official Infantry Sword thru the WWI era.

I like it!!

Regards,

Ray

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the kind words Neekee. Indeed it is often difficult for many in todays perspective to fully comprehend the ideals and codes of these fascinating historical times, which is exactly what makes the study of these arms so compelling.
A wonderful sword, and all the more so that it is part of your own family history!